Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm

Dear @lewm and dear friends: You answer with a question instead to first answer my question because was you who posted that statement.

Which the " best " way for the cartridge can ride the LP groove modulations and at the same time pick up all " the reporded signal " in those modulatiuons?

Obviously that’s through a LT tonearm that in theory has not TAE and the cartridge will rides those critical modulations.

Next to that could comes the pivoted overungh tonearms that comes more or less with a maximum 1.5° on TAE.

I’m not talking of tracking distortions only that the stylus tip be in " perfect " alignment with the groove modulations to pick up the information. It’s obvious that a TAE of 1.5° does not permits to pick up 100% information very near but not what a LT can does.

Those for me is where we have to start before all those generated distortions of every kind.

Now, we have the VIV underhung tonearm that according Yamaha has not 3° or 5° but nothing less than 10° where the stylus tip just can’t pick up the recorded information in the same way, with the VIV what we listen is away from the recording comparing a 1.5° TAE tonearm or LT.

For me is more important what the cartridge can pick up that all the other " things " surrounded till we listen that LP modulations.

@melm posted that for him in his VIV the sounds is better than in the normal pivoted tonearm and that affirmation just can’t be true because to start the cartridge in the VIV can’t pick up ennough information ! ! !

My take is that the overall issue is about accuracy where 0° TAE in a LT is the champ, next that 1.5°  stylus tip TAE not accurated but the next nearest about and the that 10° stylus ti TAE than just can't rides adequated those groove modulations in the LP. What follow those facts has " no importance " till we understand where is the begin for.

R.

My goodness me, this thread has grown arms and legs.

As you know I have a 9" Viv Labs, the only people that can comment with any authority is those people that have heard one, once heard you can draw your own conclusions.

For information the place I bought mine from is the designer and manufacturer of Living Voice speakers and I know that Kevin Scott is highly regarded within the industry and is good friends with Frank Kuzma. I know for a fact that he has tried numerous arms, included some of the arms lorded by others in this thread and decided against them for no other reason than how they performed. What I am certain of there is no way he would promote or sell a product that he did not believe in. 

Raul, just to be accurate, 10 degrees TAE comes from Yamaha. And it applies to the extreme angle of the error their tonearm ever achieves. Obviously at the null point, the TAE is zero. I think the Yamaha is 7 inches. For underhung tonearms, max TAE goes down as length increases. Thus for a 9 inch Viv, the max TAE would be lower. When I first discerned that the RS LABS sounds so surprisingly good , despite the many weird aspects of its design, even disregarding it’s underhung-ness, it started me wondering whether TAE is so important to SQ. You yourself are no big fan of LT tonearms so far as I know, and you are on record for not liking 12 inch overhung tonearms which have less TAE than 9 inchers. So where is the evidence that minimal TAE is crucial?

Dear @alan60 : " My take on all this is the company is being different for the sake of being different. "

That’s what @clearthinker posted and seems to me is just rigth.

I return to something I already posted:

" all the designer/manufacturer statements he posted in his site has no single evidence to be true. " and are stupid for say the least. I don’t care about followers.

What K.Scott could says a bout has no importance to any one but you because there is not factible evidence/facts to support it.

Almost all in this thread are already cooking the " fish " when not even pick-up the fish, go figure.

If you just did not understand that the VIV 10° of TAE avoid/impedes for the cartridge STYLUS TIP can ride in adequated/accurated way the groove modulations that’s where is the " rigth fish "and if the cartridge stylus tip can’t ride succesfully those modulations because of that very hifgh TAE then and before any kind of developed distortions as in any tonearm you just do not have the " fish " that is in the recording but a way different kind of fish that puts you away from the recording. If you can’t understand those facts then is you who has not the authority to chime about.

Your like it or the other " like it " owners or Scott are only good to each one of you that understand nothing what is really happening down there.

Please think on this: where " things " start/begin before you can listen any kind of sound? Yes, that stylus tip TAE be at minimum not at maximum as your tonearm 10° TAE.

Please first pick-up the rigth " fish " not the other. Gentleman just common sense.

You are a VIV satisfied owner, good try to follow in that way but don’t try to win a war with out any real/true weapon. But that’s you and free to make what ever you want it.

R.

Dear @lewm : I will answer you even that you still do not to my pending question.

Overhung tonearms has 2 null points and this is an advantage over the underhung because in reality the overhung almost always are ridding with lower TAE than the underhung ones that rides more surface distance at higher TAE.

I don’t like 12" for other reasons ( that I posted several times. ) and the same for LT tonearms.

Maximum TAE in a 12" tonearm is 1.36° ( Löfgren A IEC standard ) and for a 9" ONE IS 1.9° AND MY FAVORITE 10.5" IS 1.59°.

Even with those minimal maximum TAE exist differences in tracing distortions minimal but exist: 0.43% average distortion vs 0.31% in the 12"

My target is try to stay truer to the recording and I think that the best tonearm for my target is the 10.5° EL where the VIV just can’t compete.

Lewm, which kind of " fish " do you want? and when you decide that then follow try to pick-up. That’s it.

You said: why TAE so critical?. Well in the past tonearms came with no TAE or wrong TAE, so Löfgren decided ( along other gentlemans as Baerwald, Stevenson, Bauer, Pisha,etc, etc. ) to determine the " rigth " offset angle that could permit the cartridge stylus tip to follow more accurated the groove LP modulations to achieve minimum distortion tracing levels and VIV came to the audio world at says: forgeret all those because is wrong and this is the new " fish " and several audiophiles just believe with out any facts. So: do you think is critical or not? and please answer and don't be elusive about.

Useless all other: " like it ", " believes " or " thinking "

Where are the targets of all of you? then decide in concordance with.

R..