Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm

@lewm , You have to be kidding me Lew. After all I have said about measurement microphones, digital signal processing, and crazy microscopes? I measure everything that affects the performance of my system. If you don't you are out to sea without a compass.

@intactaudio , see my post above to alan60

@pindac, you build your own equipment, any of it? You measure the performance of your system with anything other than your ears? You been doing this since you were 4 years old. You spend 10 years installing very expensive systems in the homes of rich people to pay your way through medical school? You sir are a totally subjective nightmare. 

@atmasphere , 1++ Excellent dissertation Ralph. 

@rauliruegas 1++ Ditto. The key it is to maintain objectivity as far as you can and save the subjectivity for areas you can not measure or control. The Tonearm is not one of these areas. The Speaker/Room is by far the most difficult issue and subjectivity has to creep in. Here there are issues of taste and preference that go beyond measurement. It is still important to measure and understand everything you can.

@wallytools , JR, your opinion is always welcome here. Nobody is shooting at anybody and heated discussions are not a bad thing. Sometimes you have to be very specific to get the message across. There are always a few...total subjectivists around. The Viv arm is a great example of them in operation. They are entitled to ruin their own systems. But, others read these posts and I hate to see them swayed by alchemy. Yours is a voice of reason and should be heard especially when it comes to tonearms and cartridges.  

@mijostyn I take it you have a very short recollection, as I know you read all my posts.

I don't build anything, apart from a CDT and a few stored Cartridges, every device in use is Bespoke produced, either built from scratch or a available product undergone Substantial Modification, such as the Tonearm, Cart', Phonostage, Pre-Amp in the Making, Power Amps, Speakers.

I have fortunately never been too fixated on one system only and have as a result, of being social in the world of HiFi in my Country been demonstrated numerous devices used for analogue replays.

Like all, I arrive at a demonstration as an individual intending on using my ears, to assess the impact the set up can have on myself. When an impression is seen as valuable, the learning about the factors present that are contributors are usually encouraged to be openly discussed. Topics such a room conditioning, equipment and equipment matching, cabling, modifications or bespoke designs are the subject under discussion.

Discoveries are made that can not be made hiding away in a room, with a head full of fanciful/delusional ideas in relation to HiFi equipment. Relying on a few tools to substantiate the findings with only one interpretation of the data produced, if produced accurately at all, does not cut it for me, in relation to you.

I have already in this Thread seen your very biased and selective description of what is a audiophile, to prove your point. 

As said, lets see where the snobbery displayed by the few in cahoots goes.   

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I have waited several days before looking in. One does not want to be irritated.

...you are no[t] longer an audiophile. You are just a music lover. Not a bad place to be. Certainly a lot less expensive.

As you wish. I shall still point out when you contradict yourself. What's that? Oh, no problem, you're welcome.

If you are an opera buff then you REALLY need to go to Milan and see a show at Teatro alla Scala. It's like the Sistine Chapel for opera lovers.

And how do you know I have not done so? Let us not get into 'no true Scotsman' territory, nor even the 'no true Wagnerian' subset.

Mijo, do you also have an audio signal generator, a distortion analyzer, a high end oscilloscope, test LPs for IM and HD produced by cartridges, and etc., and is every claim you make here substantiated by hard data using valid controls? If so, I apologize.

The stuff you mentioned is mostly to allow control on the input side. You didn’t mention how you might collect and use data on the output side. Not that there’s anything wrong with using your ears.

@atmasphere 

Agree 100% with you on the distortion which is why i tried to make a parallel with TAE.  I find it highly unlikely that every tonearm cartridge combo will respond to TAE in the same manner and there is more to it than simply slapping a number on it and calling it equal.  I think we can all agree that the lower the TAE the better but If we accept the belief that the lowest TAE is best then a 12" arm must better a 9" arm which is a statement that will draw lots of ire here. Going further a linear tracker would be better yet.   With the new 9" sapphire arm, Kuzma counters this by saying arm rigidity is more important than TAE much in the way Viv labs asserts Skating forces dominate the situation.   I see nothing technically inconsistent in any of the Viv labs assertions to merit calling them "stories" or deceptive in any way but it seems some here feel differently.  

WRT cutting level and mistracking, it seems there is not a good definition of what mistracking actually is.  My take is any movement in a direction not cut on the record is mistracking which means it is  constant occurrence from numerous causes. I think the concept of "If it makes it across track 4 on record X it is a great tracker" is a far to simplistic all or nothing approach. The devil is in the details and lots of things come into play here and exploring the details is the best we can do.

If the coupling isn’t there as I have talked about, one of the results is more mistracking. IOW it works opposite of what you propose. This is simply because the arm is putting more energy into the cantilever.

Like distortion and TAE, mistracking cannot be a one size fits all proposition and making it thus  is going in the wrong direction.  What if it is the type of mistracking is what matters?  I have found that comparing a conical to an advanced profile for a given angular error nets interesting results.  For angles in the ±1° range the advanced profile is substantially better but once outside that range the conical becomes the preferred choice.  IOW 5°≠5°

Regarding your last question, how do you know that underhung arms are actually preferred? Do you know of a poll regarding such??

Didn't mean to suggest that.  I simply noted that amongst the specific subset of Viv Labs arms, the 9" arm seems preferred to the longer versions which is odd if TAE is the true metric of quality some make it.  I do want to be clear that with my current setup (traditional offset overhung rigid bearing arm + advanced profile stylus), I find more than 1° TAE problematic but by comparison the same profile (microrisdge) on the underhung  Schröder reference reminds me nothing of what I would expect hear from a similar error on a traditional arm.  This simply tells me that there must be more to this than simply looking at the TAE as a single factor and explains my interest in this thread.  Do I ultimately expect to become an underhung fanboy???  No... but that doesn't mean there isn't something to be learned from those who like it ~17mm short :-)

dave