Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

but working with object based information means you are creating images between the speakers

You do that in 2 channel stereo too, like a phantom center channel, a soundstage that extends beyond the plane of the speakers.

so if you are in a completely symmetrical listening position the images can’t have much depth

In my room the wall and ceiling seem like speakers, the room is pressurized, and images are content dependent. I posted that amapiano music for a reason. When you upmix it you get imaging that you have never heard in stereo. It is the second mix of the three I posted and you need to listen to about 30 minutes or so. Use the 7.1.4 genelec setup at up between 70-80 db upmixed in dolby surround and see. Movies are completley different depending on the content. Listen to or watch Mad Max, same volume level or higher and you will see how the audio objects follow those cars. Use the genelecs as that is a perfectly matched system as long as you have the speakers positioned per atmos specs.

Movies are much further ahead in surround mixing

This is why you use upmixers. I’m not limited by a bad atmos mix when I can switch to auro 3d, or the DTS upmixer. You can use these for movies or music. All of that amapiano music I listen to upmixed. Today I listened to Kind of Blue in the atmos mix. Unless someone told you it was atmos you wouldn’t know, the engineers kept the musicians in front of you, they didn’t mix heavy handed. Then you get a guy like Moby and his mixes are boincing around everywhere. So if you don’t like a mix that is what upmixers are for.

setting up surround music mixes is disturbing to your brain because

No, remember, YOUR brain is not average, it has been trained to focus on channel based or you got fired, I don’t know how much experience you have in immersive. I agree its early days but I have found great content and mediocre content. I upmix bad content for my "palate".

From a review of Kind of Blue:

When a high-res stereo version of “So What” was played for comparison, the sound seemed flat and “locked” to the front speakers, with little sense of height or depth.

PMC and Capitol Records worked with the Miles Davis estate to secure the three mono master tapes used to create the new recordings. (Both Davis’ son Erin and nephew and drummer, Vince Wilburn, were in attendance at the demo.) The playback system in Munich mirrored the original setup in Capitol Studios where the remixes were created: 3 PMC Fenestria towers up front for LCRs, 10 PMC Wafer on-wall speakers for surrounds, another 6 Wafers used as overheads, all of it driven by Bryston electronics.

Eventually surround music may become a genera unto its self and become just fun but people won’t have real connection to the music unless some standards are made fairly soon.

Do you know what John Storyck said about this? He said immersive music will surpass movies because all you need is headphones, not a video monitor.

If you are a two channel enthusiast I get the allure of passive speakers. There are a LOT of very beautiful amps to roll out there. Integrated, stereo, and monoblock. If monoblocks are regarded as superior why doesn’t everyone use them? The price. Look around and you can find monoblocks starting at $1000 a channel and upwards of $10,000 a channel. For a TWO channel system take that price and mutiply x 2, or x 4 if you are going to biamp. That is fine... for TWO channels.

Why are multi-channel amps so much cheaper? Because they are....cheaper, as in inferior to a good monoblock amp.

So, how can you biamp your 5+ channel system with monoblocks at a price that is even more competitve than a MCH amp? Use active speakers. Active speakers have a dedicated monoblock for each driver. You can buy a pair of good active speakers for the equivalent of ONE good monoblock amp.

So, if you are a two channel person who likes amp rolling and have a nice budget, go for it.

If you are going into MCH system and looking at MCH amps DON’T do it. Look for active speakers instead.

@kota1 I hope even someone stumbling onto this thread has at least seen why quality powered speakers are superior. I have been pointing out the problems with powered speakers and it's logical extension synergistic systems. If all the components were made for each other the entire system would sound better. When I was working in the film industry I was the first sound mixer to be completely digital from transmitter to recording there were a few others who used digital recorders before I did but not be digital through the entire path, it was a huge help I could keep a lower signal and if an actor got inspired and screamed for no reason I had way more headroom than everyone else because I only used one A to D converter. Production sound recorders now have a dynamic range of 142db we only hear 120db so that means the limitation isn't the recordings anymore 20 years ago it was about 110 db 30 years ago recorders could record about 85db. Sound now has more resolution in every way than we can hear, so naturally manufactures should market the most efficient speaker/amp/DAC/Streamer system possible, nope they are very happy to have all of us waste money buying everything separately and getting it wrong most of the time then buying more and more and more equipment.

@donavabdear

I hope even someone stumbling onto this thread has at least seen why quality powered speakers are superior

I would hope they simply see the advantages, especially price to performance ratio.

I have been pointing out the problems with powered speakers

Actually all you have done is praise the Genelecs, you may not realize it but the perception I get is you point out the problems of the 9H (passive), the subs (active) and the amp (hybrid). Then you pointed out problems of buying mismatched gear, so no, I didn’t get that point the problem is with powered speakers.

If all the components were made for each other the entire system would sound better.

To the point, your Genelecs sync, your curated system has stumbled a bit. AFTER you audition a matched Bryston, JBL, or Meridian active system we can discuss.

I realize that I have a matched system of Paradigm speakers, Anthem amps, and a Paradigm streamer/transport. If I got an Anthem AVM processor it would be completely matched but it lacks some features I like.

I had way more headroom than everyone else

You said the magic word HEADROOM, you can’t get the headroom an active system provides with MCH amps in a HT, impossible because all those channels draw from the same power supply. Like sticking 7 straws in a drink and saying its better.

Sound now has more resolution in every way than we can hear

It’s sad, MCH sounds more lifelike than hirez according to the Sound and Vision reviewer. Blind test a red book vs hirez recording with 10 untrained listeners and how many can spot the difference reliably? Put 10 people in a room for the same demo the reviewer got with Miles (hirez vs atmos) and it would be 100% reliable which one is which.

So naturally manufactures should market the most efficient speaker/amp/DAC/Streamer system possible

Bryston is already doing that, those speakers measure like a Floyd Toole master class in speaker design. The passive measure great, the active even better. Same with JBL synthesis, same with Meridian. People buy what they want, not what has the best validated performance. My Paradigm active speakers measure and perform better in every way than their passive counter part. Guess which design had a longer run? The one that was worse, go figure.

nope they are very happy to have all of us waste money buying everything separately

The members here are more sophisticated than a Best Buy shopper. Go look at their systems and if you tell them they are wasting money they are happy doing it, LOL. You got to offer what the customers want, not what they should want. Hence, the reason I like this thread you started, active is a wiser investment on a dollar to SQ basis. They are the opposite of wasteful.

getting it wrong most of the time then buying more and more and more equipment.

Says the man about to buy $$$ speakers without a proper audition, go figure.

What about we change it to:

Getting it RIGHT most of the time by AUDITIONING more and more equipment.

I saw wisdom in what one of the initial posters said "you do you and don't forget to enjoy the music"