Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)

@milpai ,

I am only advocating that people behave maturely and stick to discussing audio, free from personal insults, lies and libel.

I am not sure what aspect of human hearing we do not understand you are referring to? I did a quick perusal but it is hard to make a detailed search here or at least that is a skill I do not possess yet. For understanding audio, we know a lot. However, we don't know, beyond general statements, what any one person will prefer though there are theories about environmental exposure (what those around you like) and also genetic wiring. It am not sure that is relevant though.

One statement that Amir made, was that a tube amplifier with a non-flat frequency with a particular speaker is a flawed design. I do not agree with that assessment for many reasons. First is that the resultant frequency response, in room, may be preferable, even more accurate. Second is that at an individual level, preference trumps accuracy, so the only person who can state flawed, is the final user. Last is that there are many flawed humans in the chain of musical production that all recordings are inherently flawed. We don't know what the best final playback function is, though Amir could make the argument, that on average, for that case at least, flat is best.

To the ASR crowd:

Are you using a 1KHz tone?

Do you do some basic IMD3 test?

I mean music is infinitely more complicated than that.

@amir_asr , thank you for sharing your perspectives. I have an education in computer engineering. But being an audiophile, I just don’t agree with the position that the science and measurements can totally explain our perceptions. I have a fundamental belief that science cannot explain all of the dimensions that impact our subjective interpretation of physical sound waves. Why? You have suggested folks get upset when ASR rejects a component that they subjectively praise. I think you are correct in many, many cases. It’s why people get so fired up about ASR. In my case I don’t care if ASR rejects a component that I subjectively enjoy - that doesn’t bother me in the slightest because if I enjoy it that’s all that matters to me. So why do I follow my subjective judgement over science? I simply don’t believe that science can FULLY explain, at our present level of understanding, how sound waves are subjectively interpreted by humans. Why do I believe this? My own blind testing experiments, over decades, that offer results that are not explainable. Differences in power cords, the effect of burn-in, vibration control products etc. Sure there are theories why these things make a difference even when blind testing, even with generalized theories that are proven, but to my knowledge none are proven in the specific application of HiFi audio.

My engineering buddies think I’m absolutely nuts when I say music servers and USB cables make a difference in audio, but, with their knowledge, I can’t blame them at all for coming to those conclusions, as I have the same knowledge. But the difference is, they’ve not had the blind subjective test experiences that I’ve had, which leads me to question whether science really knows everything about the manner in which humans subjectively perceive sound waves.

Without going into details that may be taboo on this board, I don’t consider myself to be a particularly spiritual person, despite the objective evidence that our universe could be part of some grand design. But if I had some sort of personal subjective experience that clarified a particular spiritual path for me, I could see myself heading down that path. But nothing remotely close to this has happened. But in the world of audio, it has! That’s why I feel we need to go beyond the science!

What we perceive through our senses is not at all a “fantasy world” as you have suggested. That “fantasy world” is actually all that we have.  Sure, measurements can tell us what is happening in the world.  But no measurement, as of yet, can explain how we perceive it.

ASR does use a 32 tone test - or something like that...which is better than just 1 KHz.

@amir_asr

My post about your graphs (the bar graph) with different types of listners in a selective order was removed by a moderator! I’ve reached out to her a few times regarding site issues that have since been fixed! 

Was this done in error? Please consider that the content of my post tried to get the crux of an issue regarding ASR measurements. Anyway, I can post some of it again. Wish I would have saved it...wasted my time writing all that out.

@amir_asr

I’m not here to argue with you, but since you are here and alive/well, I figured that sharing some of what I believe is right is worth a shot.

Audio _ Science _ Review

Like I said before,

Would you consider having your test results/measurements verified by other industry experts? I don’t see a problem with that. If I were you, I would welcome 3rd party validation of my work. Why? because that is a scientific process. I have a few friends who are actually scientists, work in labs etc. And we’ve spoken about this process many times before. If I’m actively posting reviews (like you) I would certainly want others to credit my work as correct, with repeatble results.

Perhaps an online petition could be made public; then have audiophiles from this forum, your forum, and others shoot their shot. Either you get audited, or you don’t. It’s that simple. Would you be open to such a challenge?

If no one it auditing your work (much like at a workplace within a finance department); we can’t just assume that junior accountant is doing flawless work. A CPA would be a watchful eye, so to speak. I think ASR needs one as well. Nothing against you or the folks on your site.or even @kenjit

Let’s have a balanced back and forth about this. + 6 dB or whatever. Cheers.

+1 @nyev such an excellent post.

@mastering92 the ASR community repeatedly states that they are "right" because of science. You’re simply encouraging replication by other parties to verify Amir’s measurements and results. I’m sure logistics and extra work between Amir and other parties will be the excuse, but then honestly, unsure if the "S" belongs between the "A" and the "R."