2. amps-preamps
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Weak Link in Vinyl Playback

Hi Everyone,

I’m looking for some input on a weak link in my system, mostly in regards to my vinyl playback chain in a 12’x11’ room.

I currently have a Technics SL-1700 MK1 with an AT-VM95ML cartridge. The turntable is connected to an iFi Zen Phono. The phono is connected to a Schiit Saga S via 3 ft. Blue Jeans BJC LC-1 cable, and the Saga runs to a single Schiit Vidar by the another set of the same cable. The Vidar is connected to Elac Debut B6.2’s via 10 ft. Belden 50000UE cable (as an aside, my digital path is Pro Ject S2 Pre Box Digital connected by the same 3ft. interconnects to the Saga>Vidar>speakers). I’ve connected a sub previously (a Martin Logan Grotto I that I inherited) to the Saga in the past, but am currently running without it.

My concern is that while the digital path sounds full to me, at least as much as can be expected, the vinyl path sounds a bit thin and weak. I guess I’d describe it as kind of lacking energy. My gut tells me the Saga S having 0 gain in both the passive and buffer mode (I run it in passive mode because it sounds more lifelike to me but I’ve used the buffer in the past as well) is the reason for this, but I’m not positive. I’m ready to upgrade to the Freya S if that’s the solution, but I didn’t want to start throwing money at a problem without really narrowing it down first. The Zen phono is set to MM and gain 1, which should be correct for my cartridge, the interconnects aren’t overly long (the speaker cable being 10’ isn’t too big a deal, I think?), the Vidar should be driving my inefficient speakers with no issue and judging by the digital path, it is. 

I’m hoping someone here can weigh in on what would make the biggest positive impact in my listening and give me the oomph I think I’m missing. For what it’s worth, I plan on doing some room treatment down the road, but that’s not what I’m looking for advice on at the moment.


Thanks!

owl9113
owl9113 OP
35 posts
 

@atmasphere @jasonbourne71 I actually just turned off the active mode for the first time last week, prior to posting which is why I said I wasn’t using it. I switched it back on for now - thanks for the clarification. That seems to further the inability of the Saga to run gain being the problem.

@oldrooney I have no allegiance to Schiit or anything, but the Freya S does seem to get legitimately good reviews and measures well. If there’s anything else in this price range with similar performance, I’m certainly open to hearing it.

mesch
3,410 posts
 

It seems to me that you are looking for greater dynamics. To achieve this you need to increase the gain. When you increased the gain on the phonostage from 1 to 2 the system sounded better. Gain 2 is for cartridges with less that 2mV. Gain 1 is for cartridges greater than 2mV. You are stuck in the middle. Now if the loading of the MM gain 1 is preferred then you need a MM cartridge having greater output, say 3.5-5.0 mV.  

DACs output 2 or greater V. Passive preamps work well with that output. With vinyl an active preamp is often preferred. 

owl9113 OP
35 posts
 

@mesch looks like my cartridge is rated at 3.5 mV, so level 1 is correct. I suppose I could always run the preamp active for vinyl, passive for digital. This would still apply to the upgraded preamp I was considering as well.

nlitworld
57 posts
 

Here is a couple cheap essential items for setting up your table. I know some tonearms and cartridges are more susceptible to setup, and your micro line cartridge would certainly play into that. Mine surely does.

Here is a cheap digital scale

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01HRJ9NAY?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Here is a cheap vertical angle alignment block

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07794JXYZ?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

 

As for the idea it being power issue, if it was truly the preamp, I would suspect your digital also had the issue. Your cartridge having 3.5mV output definitely likes the gain #2 setting on your phono stage and really that could be part of the underlying problem as well. Even with gain #2 selected on your phono stage (48dB gain), your 3.5mV from the cartridge is boosted to only 0.8V into the Saga, where your ProJect dac has an output of 2V giving it the appearance of much more oompf. To match your cartridge to the same input level of your digital, you'd need about 56dB of gain from your phono stage or just less attenuation on your volume control (i.e. crank it up). It seems what you are perceiving as a sound difference is likely just a level matching between your components.

 

To test that theory, download a dB meter on your phone and play an album at a decent loudness, and mark where the volume dial is and the average db level. Then play the same song on digital and note where the volume dial is when matching to the same volume level. I'd be willing to bet one is cranked to 3-4o'clock while the other is 11-12o'clock. This is not a deal breaker for musical enjoyment, just a quirk when running vinyl and digital on the same system. My setup is the same way where my phono stage is outputting 0.5V but digital is 2V and you compensate by adjusting the volume knob a bit.

mesch
3,410 posts
 

@owl9113 Sorry, I thought I picked up somewhere that it was stated that your cartridge output was 2mV. Yes using your preamp in active mode for vinyl should help. 

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