Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?


It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.”  And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything?  For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think. 
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is. 

chayro

@mahgister 

He means that we fool ourselves any time if we dont LEARN if it is the time to trust only ourselves or the time  trust an other...

We are the easiest person to fool because we dont know why it is time to go alone or to listen others... Simple...

 

No, you wrote in utterly vague circles, never landing on his actual point. 

His point clearly had to do with what separates the scientific endeavour from everyday level inferences.

When Fynman says "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."

That is clearly a warning about the influence of human BIAS in distorting and guidling our conclusions.   "You are the easist person to fool" is a reference to how easy it is for us to filter explanations and evidence to fit our desires or biases.  In fact, we are easy to fool through various pitfalls in thought, even when we are trying to not be biased.  When YOU are the one doing the testing YOUR actions and interpretations will have a blind spot of your own bias.

He admonishes us therefore The first principle is that you must not fool yourself,"  which means we have to incorporate guardrails against fooling ourslef in to our methods of inquiry.

This is so obvious it's just hard to believe folks like you and rodman can't just state what he meant.

Since our biases form such an obvious, first problem in interpreting results, this is why there are various methods of mitigating the influence of bias in scientific testing.  It's why for instance many therapeutic trials are done blind, double and even triple blinded.

It's why you want to have a hypothesis that is testable by other parties, looking to prove your hypothesis wrong, themselves using safeguards against their own bias effects.

This has OBVIOUS implications for testing audio claims.  If for instance sighted bias is a known confounding variable - a prime way of FOOLING YOURSELF - then Feynman's admonishment clearly indicates you should find a way to rule out that way of FOOLING YOURSELF.   Job ONE of the approach he is advocating!

This is why most of the scientific level of research on human perception in general, and much that is available on the perception of audio gear (e.g. the research often cited by Floyd Toole) is done with controls for those variables so the FOOLING YOURSELF part is mitigated as much as possible.

Of course neither you nor anyone else no this forum needs to do scientific-level rigorous research in order to enjoy the hobby or buy whatever you want.  But if someone is invoking Feynman in a thread that clearly entails the relevance of science to audio, then at least get what he was saying.  You can ignore it...but at least understand it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@prof do you run an alt Amir account because you sound rude just like him LOL

Saying "anyone" on this forum needs to do scientific research is baseless and overstated. I do scientific research. I don't do things without research and some sort of basis in reality. 

@somethingsomethingaudio 

 

@prof Pretty sure when they said snake oil they were referring to the price tag and how it probably doesn’t do anything better and the fact that it bricked on a firmware upgrade.

No, when Amir pointed out the Tact was not snake oil, textbychoice implied it was as Amir spent "$15K on an audio toy that ended up being useless.'"

That is an utterly disingenuous spin on Amir's situation with the Tact.  It wasn't snake oil, it worked for it's purpose.  Years after owning it, it became bricked by new firmware (hardly unheard of with computer devices).  Something that actually did what it technically claimed to do, worked, but then got broken in a mishap, then simply isn't what "snake oil" means.  It's just cheap attempts at "you do it too, nyah, nyah" stuff..

 

Let me ask you, do you think everything he says is gospel? It seems you are up his butt for different reasons.

Hardly.  Amir and I have clashed occasionally on his forum, I'm sometimes seen as a "subjectivist in sheep's clothing" on the ASR forum :-)

And did you miss my critique of one of Amir's statements in this very thread?

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2582798

I'm not on sides per se - on ASR I will both critique Agon forums and defend them. I'll critique subjective reviews and also defend them.  I'll critique claims on ASR but also defend those I find defensible.  I'm not on a team.   I'm just trying to call 'em as I see 'em.

The reason I jump in to a thread like this isn't because I think Amir and ASR is above criticism.  As Amir keeps pointing out, he gets criticism all the time on ASR.

It's just that sound criticism in threads like these are mixed in with SO much b.s., strawmen, ad hominem.  It really is a bad show for Audiogon forums unfortunately.  And it's not "just because of Amir showing up with an ego!" 

I agree with Amir: all the varieties of "but you have a big ego" are ad hominem: address his arguments, his evidence.  Is he correct, and therefor giving helpful information to audiophiles, or not?   The replies to him have been generally terribly weak on rebutting substance.  (Which is why I find myself often on ASR these days over Agon.  I come to Agon to engage in subjective talk, which I really enjoy).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@prof audioquest usb cables cost many times what Amazon basics do and do the same job so by your logic the audio quest isn’t snake oil???

@prof 

That is an utterly disingenuous spin on Amir's situation with the Tact.  It wasn't snake oil, it worked for it's purpose. 

Get a grip on reality.  Amir was called out in exactly the same way He and the ASR crowd would attack anyone else doing exactly the same thing. 

So lets agree that his $15K device worked at one time and he verified improved FR with measurements and listening.  Somebody else uses room treatment and verifies improved FR  with measurements and listening.  Or somebody modifies speaker crossovers and verifies improved FR with measurements and listening.  Amir already stated room treatment does not work.  Also on record numerous times crossover component cost or quality make not difference.  Once again, Amir's own words and actions arrive at the same destination - Amir is right, everyone else is wrong.  An WOW, his comment about rubbing elbows with luminaries is arrogance on full display.  Love to hear your defense of that statement.