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From whence does Sound Stage come?

What drew me back to this hobby after dabbling in High School, was listening to a friend’s system, in a room over his garage filled with over-stuffed furniture, at least seven different amplifiers and twice that many speakers. What was new to me was a room literally filled with sound, and I couldn’t tell where it was coming from. I climbed over the furniture and put my ear to speaker after speaker, but I was never able to locate the source of the sound. It was a wonderful, awe-filled, experience.

Fast forward to the present. I have now built several systems, in different rooms, with different components. Sometimes I get a ‘sound stage’ where the speakers disappear, sometimes I don’t. I have been told that getting the speakers to disappear is all a matter of placement in the room: “Give me your room dimensions; and I’ll tell you where to place your speakers.” But I can tell you, some speakers disappear, and some speakers announce their presence with every note. I have had odd staging where a particular sound appeared un-naturally at the wrong place (like a cymbal hit at my feet); only to have the issue resolved to a more coherent shape with an upgrade to the analog output stage of the DAC. I have had a decent sound stage cast by a particular pair of speakers, only to have it destroyed with the use of a sub-par power amplifier. I’ve heard reviewers and designers talk about how their component offers sound stage depth as well as width (depth seems to be more difficult to achieve). And then there is the old canard about how tube amps present a ‘halo graphic’ sound stage. I can detail the equipment configurations that have I have put together that succeeded or failed at the goal of presenting a great sound stage, but I’m trying to ask a general question, I am not a bot, and I’m not seeking help with a particular configuration, just help on developing a strategy to tackle the issue of sound stage and imaging of instruments within it. 
I will say that the best sounding solutions I have developed thus far both involved a Schiit Yggdrasil (now at ‘Less-is-More) into a SS McIntosh C100 (circa 1992) and either a tube Rogue ‘Stereo 100’ or a SS McIntosh MC252 power amp powering either the Warfedale W70E or B&W 801 Matrix speakers. If I substitute different amps, speakers, preamp, or DAC, the pyramid crumbles and I start hearing two speakers again; I lose my ‘sound stage,’ which is really concerning (to me). Anyone with more than two years into this hobby is qualified to address this question. I need some help, I can’t just keep throwing equipment (and money) at this issue. Any ideas?

128x128oldrooney
dz13
253 posts
 

Assuming that my understanding is that "soundstage" is the location/positioning of the instruments including vocals and is not the same as "imaging" which would be the projection of the soundscape into the room, soundstage initially comes from the mixing/editing process when the recording is made. Sounds can be panned from side to side or placed in various locations based upon the position the producer/engineer puts it. There is mic placement and there are effects which might be part of the initial recording or added during the mixing process. Having made amateur recordings and producing/engineering my own recordings, that is a basic part of the process.

After that, it is up to the speakers/system/placement to accurately reproduce the soundstage which is set up in the recordings.

noromance's avatar
noromance
9,838 posts
 

@oldrooney , unlike you, I have had much the same components for a long time. This has allowed me to experience a controlled environment. I have tweaked every aspect of the system(s), and with each improvement, the soundstage (among other qualities) has improved dramatically. It’s a turntable-based setup. Every change has been methodological—varying from changing a single resistor to running in new power. The biggest improvements came from upgrading components in the turntable, and rolling in better tubes in the amplifiers. Another major improvement came from using springs under components, including the turntable and speakers. As the clarity, transparency, and speed (attack) of the music improved, so too did the holographic nature of the soundstage.

oldrooney's avatar
oldrooney OP
208 posts
 

@bolong Looks like my usage wasn’t so bad after all, thank you for your contribution.

@dz13 I agree with your clear and cogent analysis. The issue for me is with reproducing the sound stage in the room. The speakers upstairs work very differently from the speakers downstairs. I’m going to work with the test records and CDs I have on hand and that I expect to arrive soon to get an objective handle on what’s going on in the different rooms with the different speakers.

@noromance I hope someday to get my system to a point where I can hear the differences between the tweaks you mention. I’m especially concerned to stabilize the system upstairs; I can leave the downstairs system free for experimentation. 

@williewonka Wow! That is quite a conversation on Helix Cabling! I’m interested, I’ll have to look into it further. Where would you start in the chain? —Speaker cables, —Power Cables, —Interconnects: source to preamp to amp; or, preamp to amp, then source to preamp?

Post removed 
williewonka
3,075 posts
 

@oldrooney - I would start with speaker, then interconnect, then power.

Starting with the speaker cables allows you to hear the fine details provided the other cables

For Interconnects, build the source to pre amp first, you should hear a significant improvement. Then build the Pe to main amp IC

For power  cables, start with source components, you'll hear significant improvements, and as you proceed to the main amp you will start to hear the fine details of the Vemue acoustics

Ive found the biggest improvement with my source components. Especially my more budget oriented Bluesound Node 2, 

My Simaudio Moon L5,3 phono stage revealed significantly more fine details and produces a larger and more detailed image

My main amp is a Bryston B135 integrated amo adn the speakers are Gershman Acoustics Sonogram, which are very detailed and now "invisible"

My room is quite large, but with a low ceiling (7.5 ft), so I have very little in the way of sound treatments, just furniture and broadloom, but the image is stuning

Regards, steve

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