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What is turntable “liveliness”.

I have listened to turntables for sixty years. I bought my first high end TT about thirty years… it was revelatory. I do not swap tables often. I do a huge amount of research and then stay with one for fifteen years or so. My most recent upgrade was from a VPI Aries (heavy mass) to a Linn LP12 (light weight, sprung)…very nearly the very top level. Could we please not turn this into a religious thing about Linn… mine is an outstanding TT which compares favorably with any other $45K analog leg (TT, cartridge, and Phonostage)

The term lively comes up in descriptions. One of the differences in character I noticed between the VPI and Linn… which I thought might be considered liveliness was to me a bit of what I perceived as the images very slightly jumping around… the kind of thing you would think of when you see films of “The Flash” maybe vibrating in place. While I found this gave me the feeling of the notes wanting to jump out at me, I found it a bit disconcerting. I attributed it to a relatively light weight rig, that is really good at rejecting low frequency vibrations (it is a sprung table… known to be lively sounding) up to a relatively high frequency… but beyond that not. Something a really heavy rig would not be effected by.

 

To test my theory, I had a Silent Running Ohio Class vibration platform constructed for my turntable. The image smear, as I called it disappeared. There is no smear and it has great solidity.

Is this attribute “liveliness”?

ghdprentice
sokogear
1,095 posts
 

A perfect TT has no sound. It measures vibrations and that is probably what you consider lively. If it is perfectly isolated, then you have to look at the internal noise it makes. Saying eliminating that, they are all the same, is a ridiculous statement. Eliminating that is what separates them.

IMHO, the speed consistency is second to vibration and easier to achieve. I would challenge anyone to detect a .01-.05% speed variation.

The thing you have to do is eliminate the vibration where the stylus touches the groove, so the cartridge an arm can do their jobs. The TT has to not add to it. 

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,011 posts
 

When the stylus of my body touch the groove of my wife no external vibration must enter into play save pure love... 😊

lewm
13,036 posts
 

.05% of 33.33 rpm is 0.01666 rpm. I doubt any turntable one can buy is accurate within +/-.01666 rpm, but I do agree that absolute speed accuracy is overrated.  Rather, speed constancy is what differentiates among turntables, the capacity to hold speed constant despite stylus drag and groove tortuosity (which of course does add to stylus drag). This is one of many reasons why turntables sound different from one another, and it's folly to think otherwise.

unreceivedogma's avatar
unreceivedogma
979 posts
 

- Turntables matter. 

- No need to spend $75K. $3,000 used will do. 

tvrgeek
299 posts
 

Biggest improvement  after being sure the preamp load matches the cartridge, is to put it in a sealed lined box suspended.  Reducing acoustic feedback does wonders.   Sitting on a shelf between the speakers is about the worst place for it. 

Speed control helps as my friends who are musicians claim most LPs are not cut at the correct speed and pitch is off.  I am not a musician so I can't tell if an A is 440 or 441. Some can. 

Back in the day, I ran a Thorens I modified with a Grace arm. Platter was filled with plumbers putty. Sorbothane mat. We compared it to a friends SP-12 and a SOTA. Once set up, no difference. The Linn was a pain to get set correctly. I hope new tables are better. I think the mass I added to the Thorens really helped in speed consistency.  Oh, I put the pre-amp in the base of the Thorens so I could reduce noise and control the impedances better. My own, parallel FETs diff input, se output. 

Tables do seem to be a place where we go from cheap ( and sound like it) to half decent but cheap, to very good, well engineered but affordable, to silly ego mega-buck that usually sit out to impress friends and are never played.  

Yea, a lot of early CDs were transcribed with first generation 14-bit Sony's and the engineers had not learned the medium yet. But, I would rather have less than perfect sound than to miss all that great music. 

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