Significant steps? (DAC)

From the engineering and manufacturing perspective while the part cost goes up with higher quality DACs the engineering cost goes up much faster. It isn’t simply a matter of choosing “a better quality” part, it is a mater of choosing one that sounds better and synergistic with the other components… so one would evaluate a dozen different kinds of one part… say resistor. Every iteration of the design must be broken in and compared sonically with other versions. This is why a new DAC will literally take more than a year to design by highly skilled engineers (only those that have the skills to design, but also to hear nuanced differences in sound and the patience to work towards a very specific outcome.

In the inexpensive DAC arena, one can go to a parts supplier or contract manufacturer in China and say, I’d like you to build me a DAC… they will give you a standard design for free… you choose the color, the insignia, and if you would like any parts upgrade packages. Then they will make them for you. This is how we get such cheap electronics. I have been to most of these contract manufacturers in China.

Then as far as is the sound worth it. That is entirely a value judgement on an individual basis, and also subject to listening skills and experience. Audiophiles value better sound. Better sound at higher levels is more and more about nuances and consistency across the entire audio spectrum. I, as most audiophiles appreciate better sound as each aspect gets better… it approaches the real thing at the macro and micro level.

Most normal people think anyone is crazy and wasting their money for buying separates of any kind and would not do it. For them, they have the right level of investment and sound quality. I have always worked endlessly to get the very best sound for the absolutely maximum budget I could afford. It makes me very happy. I am very happy and satisfied with my current system: average component cost at $20K. If I could afford it I would take a couple years and upgrade my system to $40K average component cost and my system would sound significantly (and well worth the investment to me) and make me even happier. Arguing that there is one “right” investment level for everyone or there is an absolute “right”  is simply wrong and quite honestly just egotistical.

Good point on separates. For my last round of upgrades, I considered going to a better integrated amp. Looked at SIM, Hegel, Atoll, Audiolab, Rega, Exposure,  etc.  I thought the internal DACs were no improvement to my JDS. ( took it with me to A/B a couple of them)  In isolation, only the Moon seemed to be not as good so  one could live happily with a ton of 50 to 100W A/B integrated amps. But I don't need all the extra switching, headphones, or as it seems, the internal DAC.  None had the level of analog tone control I wanted. and most had the stupid power on to stand-by issue. ( Andiolab and Exposure did not)  So I bought a Vidar and Lokius for less than half the price. I was almost going to buy some Sonas Fabers, but the  upgrade to mine pushed them to their level at least.  That's the only reason I can get past the wife the idea of another DAC. 

And very true, a big part of boutique products is sales in the hundreds ( they hope) does not amortize as well as in the hundreds of thousands and engineering spread over many products.  As an engineer I may understand that, but as a consumer with limited or maybe just rational means, what do I get for my buck? What do I get from the brick and mortar distribution?  No one is going to show up and install a $900  DAC like a set of Wilsons. 

So I have an approach.  It seems once above the mass produced bottom tier, DACs that garner some interest seem to be stand alone requiring a preamp.  More money. So I ordered an Alps servo pot remote board from China-Inc. I hope it is a real ALPS. I am going to stuff this into my Asgard along with a little mixer to give a buffered mono sub out. So a very good remote control preamp and phones for under $100 outlay.  Single ended but my cables are all very short. 

That puts into the cost range the Mojo, Bifrost, Ares entry level non D/S chip wonders. Better or not, probably different. It still leaves open the better of the all-in-one that may be worth a try like the SU-9pro. Returnable if I hear no difference.  

I just can't get excited enough to do the big jump to the Holo Spring full version, Pontus, Hugo range.  Maybe that is the real step up as most have suggested. I hear you. I just can't go there.  There does just not seem to be anything of real improvement value between sup 1K and close to 3. I look at something like the R26 and can't help but to think it is a $500 DAC with $800 in features I don't need. A good one, but no better. 

I think a point I made was miss-understood. At some cost, there is nothing else you can do from a strait engineering improvement.  Above that, there may be value to some for exclusive, visuals, etc. but there just isn't anything known to make it sound better. Hand built does not make better sound. Mono-block billet machining does not sound better. Actually a stamped steel case has better shielding. ( OK, who is advertising Mu-Metal shielding? You want high end, use better materials! ) If it is a value to you, fine.  There is also the diminishing returns way below that level where the home system electronics is far superior to the studio.  To put it bluntly, at some point you are transporting a load of manure in a Rolls Royce hoping it will smell better. My quest is only sonic performance.  A Bugatti won't get me to the store any faster than my GTI and considering real roads ( like the music source) the GTI is a better match.  It is a big step up from a Yogo but above it, there is not really much more you can do in real performance. 

You have spoken . Volkswagen better fire all of its Porsche & Lamborghini engineers.

Armchair punditry at its best!!!

Well Porsche USED to make useable sports cars. You could actually make it to work and back every day. They do make a re-badged VW SUV.  Drove a couple a few years ago. Bought an MG. Better car. More fun. 

I was going to compare the Lambo to a $140K DAC, but the DAC will actually sit on the shelf and do a perfectly good job while you brag how rich you are, where the Lambo is just bragging rights for rich guys  that if it does not catch on fire every time you rev it, won't clear a driveway apron let alone a speed bump and is darn right dangerous in even a light rain.  So it is not really a car and no comparison is valid. Not even a decent technology demonstrator.   But as I said, there is a point when more makes no useable difference and in case of super cars, more is actually less. 

Oh for the days of the Ferrari 400 or  the 330   Useable cars on real streets. Chord Dave?   Then the did the F40 and they have been useless ever since. The last useful Lambo was a farm tractor. Come to think of it Porsche made a series of very useful tractors too. Bill Scott had a complete collection.