Real or Surreal. Do you throw accuracy out the window for "better" sound?


I visited a friend recently who has an estimated $150,000 system. At first listen it sounded wonderful, airy, hyper detailed, with an excellent well delineated image, an audiophile's dream. Then we put on a jazz quartet album I am extremely familiar with, an excellent recording from the analog days. There was something wrong. On closing my eyes it stood out immediately. The cymbals were way out in front of everything. The drummer would have needed at least 10 foot arms to get to them. I had him put on a female vocalist I know and sure enough there was sibilance with her voice, same with violins. These are all signs that the systems frequency response is sloped upwards as the frequency rises resulting in more air and detail.  This is a system that sounds right at low volumes except my friend listens with gusto. This is like someone who watches TV with the color controls all the way up. 

I have always tried to recreate the live performance. Admittedly, this might not result in the most attractive sound. Most systems are seriously compromised in terms of bass power and output. Maybe this is a way of compensating. 

There is no right or wrong. This is purely a matter of preference accuracy be damn.  What would you rather, real or surreal?

128x128mijostyn

@onhwy61 

I think the best reference for that would be Beethoven. You are right. Most of the time I am listening to music it is on the shop system which, although not terrible it is not near what is in the media room. My toe taps just the same. 

Education is not a waste of time. That is a horrific thing to say, but worse is bad education, indoctrination. Too many minds are trapped in rubbish. Too many children are told they have to be X while their talents lie in Y.  Zappa had it right. You do not need a school to get educated. 

@alfa100 

I suggest you get this record by Primus, Green Naugahyde and turn it up. You may want to get high first. This should fix the boredom, now tell me how much you have to spend. 

The love of music and the love of audio are two entirely different but related subjects. 

Using your ears to create a first class audio system is folly. You might use them in the end to make adjustments for taste like salting your food, but that is all. HiFi is all about technology and science. Understanding and applying both technology and science is the easy and sure path towards an accurate system otherwise it is a matter of luck. Your ears are more likely to steer you in the wrong direction. Saying you can is an excuse for not educating yourself and spending a little money on the right equipment. Let your ears enjoy the music. 

 

Wow, @mahgister who the heck said room control only addresses the frequency domain.

I said my tuning adress LARGE band frequencies range... LARGE not specific precise frequencies... When we tune a room for a nuance of timbre we adjust a LARGE band of frequencies; this means that with our EARS when we listen a human voice we tune our resonators grid for the encompassing large band of an instrument or a human voice ... Read me right before putting words in my mouth...And anybody know that Fourier analysis adress sound in his LINEAR MAPS and use a specific abstract time domain which is not the time domain on the concrete human ears/brain... As muuch as the map is not the territory because the ears/brain dont work in a linear way at all but in a non linear TIME DOMAIN ...

Only a digital system can affect time by delaying groups that are ahead. Phase can also be corrected.

For sure DSP advanced as the Choueiri filters BACCH do it very well it is an acoustic revolution... But even Choueiri Filters DSP cannot replace small room acoustic...No DSP replace physicaL acoustics or work as Helmholtz resonators...I plan to upgrade my system by this DSP of Choueiri an acoustic genious..

The time domain for the human ears perceiving act must not be confused with the Fourier mapping of linear frequencies analysis of abstracted factors as phase , frequency and period etc ...The ears/brain work non linearly , in the opposite the Fourier analysis work with abstract concepts which are linearly related .. This is why we had not understood all hearing mysteries to date and why there exist competiting complementory theories of hearing... Go and read about ECOLOGICAL theory of perception for example and try to understand why these theories exist in the first place...

There is no such thing as a tuned acoustic room. The best you can do is Boston Symphony Hall and I doubt you are going to stick one of those in your house.

In APPLIED acoustics, there is a great difference in using the same laws and principles when you work in THE ARCHITECTURE of great Hall Acoustic and very small room acoustic ... You dont use time measured parameters in the same way for example...You dont use the pressure zones distribution the same way either...

When i spoke about TUNING a small room , i was speaking not ONLY about material passive classical balanced treatment in absorption/reflection/diffusion, i was thinking of working with a distributed grid of 100 mechanically tunable Helmholtz resonators... Do you catch ?

My brother is a MIT Ph.D. acoustician and he never uses his ears for anything!

My mother is a very good cook , i am not at all a good one... 😊

 

The problem is not the ear or ears. It is the brain connected to them.

What are you talking about ?

The brain of a musician and of an Applied room acoustician who work for customers wanting to design small acoustic room for themselves is TRAINED by ears , they dont used only DSP and tools...They listen... Ask Floyd Toole ...or any acoustician working in APPLIED acoustics...

Acoustician teaching in university taught mathemathical formulas and basic experiments and work in refined scientific projects... Their job is not designing small room with tools and ears...

Ears/brain is the basic object of study in psycho-acoustic...The brain is no more a problem than the ears they are coupled and tested in experiments about the way human perceive LARGE band frequencies bundles called human speech or singing not in the abstract Fourier time linearly MAPPING domain but in the real concrete time domain... The map is not the territory... Do you catch ?

Then recommending to people that they must forgot about their allegedly deceptive brain/ears and trust ONLY tools , saying that audiophiles must not train their listening of sounds through simple experiments and through listening classical music , (non amplified) or jazz etc but must use ONLY DSP is preposterous ignorance...

Electronics EQ is useful but do not replace ears nor small room acoustic... Eq and Ears do not work the same way ...Simple... They are complementary tools in acoustic room design ... it is so evident i cannot say more...

frogman, you are a musician, so you got almost everything wrong. Music is first of all mathematics not art in a usual sense.

What you just said is so completely meaningless and absurd , i think nobody can teach you why in few words...

You get everything in reverse even mathematics... I will not answer... You are a lost cause it seems.. 😊

Alain Connes the creator of non commutative geometry say the exact opposite...Mathematic is musical... Guess why ?😊

I will give you a cue because i cannot explain it in few words...

The music of primes :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBArTv71Edk

Mathematics is not reducible to any logic nor to any algorythmic thinking... It is at the end a creative intuitive ART.... Explaining why will ask for too much space here...

Music perception is not reducible to any acoustic theory and certainly not to the Fourier analysis , it is the reverse, it is acousticians who try to understand musical perception and musical phenomena with their tools  ...

It is more true to describe mathemathics as music than the classical Pythagorean reverse claim that music is mathematical said the French mathematician genius Alain Connes... listen his many deep but hard to grasp , sorry, youtube courses begin with the "the music of shapes" ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z52ZAPrRbqE&t=2s

And i recommend to anyone with a strong basis in maths and A.I. to read this Indian scientist, for whom all the cosmos is hierarchies of orchestrated musical time crystals based on the prime numbers distribution matrix ... Read Connes and link him  and his work with Anirban vision...Anirban is no joke, he work with Penrose-Hameroff , developed his own ideas and the first proved that microtubules are quantum computers... He designed the first artificial brain...

His twitter with his book title which is revolutionary ( beware he spoke a worse english than me ) 😊 :

https://twitter.com/anirbanbandyo?lang=en