Big speakers, are they really the best way to get great sound?

@phusis Wrote:

@mijostyn wrote:

I live with 8 foot tall electrostatics and you would be surprised. With enough power (200 watts/ch) and crossed out at 100 Hx 48 dB/oct the little suckers (LS3 5As) will punch it out louder than anybody needs.

With 200W/ch you’d be hard pressed to reach 100dB peaks at the LP with those "little suckers," and that’s unloading all the available power into them with thermal compression at full display, voice coil lacquer smelling and headroom MIA. Sorry, no - you’re not speaking for everybody here. Granted, 100dB’s is loud, but I’m talking peaks, effortlessly, and 100dB’s can be easily reached during crescendos of classical music if an approximation of realistic playback levels is attempted.

It’s about how those peaks are reproduced, not that they’re merely (i.e.: just barely) reached. 90 dB peaks, another matter, and that’s still fairly loud, but then you wouldn’t speak for the needs of everybody either.

Look, people: you can’t have your cake and eat it too with small, low efficiency speakers - there’s no bending the rules of physics here. That’s not saying small speakers can’t be a great addition to a setup, and large speakers can have their own limitations as well. Whatever floats your boat.

I agree spot on! 😎

Mike

No, no, no, no., NO!

Someone stated - "there’s no bending the rules of physics here."

This is driving me nuts!

We are not "bending" physics, we are generating what is to us, "new" physics.

And changing some of what we "thought" about the classic modeling structure itself.

Because we were just wrong. And "That was hard to say".

Because everyone here seems to be stuck.

Stuck on ONLY using physics of the "Classical Modeling" type.

I have figured a few things out. Things which never made any sense.

Until I realized that good-ole classic, basic physics. Was missing a few things.

And so are the people who are designing most of the "top end" system components today. "Missing a few things".

But I simply cannot be the only one who has made this "shift" in thinking.

Because it "IS" going to happen.

Yet try as I might, I haven't found anyone else that see's what I am seeing. And hearing! This is why I am writing this.

It is possible to build speakers that "can" reproduce (near perfect) sound.

But it simply cannot be done with "Point Source", (Cone type speakers)!

And in that area? "No" You cannot bend any physics that I know of.

And the same can be said for "Mass". There just is no "small speaker" substitution, for what a large speaker system can achieve very easily.

Currently, if you have been paying attention to the world of technology.

You may have noticed that we are smack-dab in the middle of a revolution in ALL of out tech because of breakthroughs in modern physics. 

Both in "classical", AND in that new-fangled type, - "Quantum Physics".

Especially in the area of "Field Theory".

A revolution that will make looking back at the industrial revolution as if it were merely a "speedbump" in history.

And "All" of our contemporary thinking and attitude's about "sound reproduction" is about to get an "Overhaul" of "Biblical" proportions!

I know this post is a bit "Off-Topic".

But I write this because I am frustrated with the thinking that I find here and everywhere else currently.

I have built, "And I am still tweaking" a two-channel, speaker system which does things it should not.

And it doesn't seem to care much about room size. Though it definitely loves it's "room treatments".

It is a "84" tall "dipole" configuration. With a width of 30" and is true line source, using a hybrid electrostatic transducer array. Throwing a cylindrical wave of sound 360 degrees. And it is producing that wave at complete (75") out of the (86") available which is the ceiling height. (The high percentage of wave production area "vertically" is key here)! 

"Meaning", It isn't a (Line Source) if you just stack, say 40 x 1"-point source transducers vertically and as tight as you can get them. And call it a day.

You may "think" that. (Many do), But no. Just no.

In my case, at least for my systems full range of (150Hz. - 40,000Hz) I am using just (2) transducers to cover that entire vertical line of wave formation. (80% is covered by just one transducer).

The (60 - 150Hz.) range is driven in a cabinet of similar height and weight, (430Lbs.). (8 x 12") transducers. But I am stuck using point source transducers for this, and also a nine-subwoofer array (3 x 3 x 10") for all 60Hz. and below. 

All point source components utilize "very-stiff", coated, Aluminum-Magnesium alloy, metal cone. And more.... but I digress.

And the entire system can be built for about $12,000. "Minus all labor".

I still do not understand why my system does everything that it does.

"Like the incredible imaging and coherence even, (Behind) me".

"Yes" I did say, "Behind" me.

But I am getting there. "I hope".

I do apologize if you believe this post isn't relevant.

But the arguments here are getting a bit redundant when it comes to things such as this. Especially when the matter has been "solved".

And it's time to, "Move On"! 

Anyway, "Good Luck" to all in their quest for better sound!

Because I am here to tell you, "YES" It does exist!

And maybe, if you could, forgive my rant...

@uberk, yes indeed. The salesman says:  "Sir with these top of the line speakers you will never need a subwoofer, they go down to 20Hz."  This type of comment is a result of BS baffles brain or just plain ignorance.

Get those same speakers into a room, any room, without due cognisance of room acoustics and you will have poor performance. Now place those same speakers in a properly treated room and paradoxically you will still have poor sound albeit better than no treatment. I explained this in an earlier post. The speakers will obviously be positioned where they provide a decent sound stage with good imaging but the bass source will be compromised causing peaks and nulls. Subs can be used as tuning devices where judicious placement will smooth out the low frequencies.

@phusis 

Sorry guy, but you are wrong here. Run full range you are correct but not high passed at 100 Hz, 48 dB/oct. The little woofers become a super midrange driver. I have set up many of these systems and they handle peaks absolutely fine up to a reasonably loud volume according to my ear which is used to listening to a very large 8500 watt system. 200 Watts will get you 106 dB with an 83 dB efficient speaker, more than enough to handle peaks from a comfortably loud 95 dB. No, they will not handle peaks with the grace of a large system at high volume like yours or mine, but they are an easy match for most dynamic tower systems and with the right subwoofers will have even better bass. More importantly, in a well treated room they will image better than most speakers which was always the attraction, for me at least. I remember the first time I listened to them at the store back in 1978. They were casting a better image than most of the larger speakers in the store, as long as you could manage without any bass. The real magic did not come along until we had digital crossovers with high order slopes for subwoofers. 

An acoustic revolution of biblical proportion is in the making , you are right on this one ... But we dont need a revolution in field theory for that perhaps the incoming A.I. will help for sure but we must wait for this A.I. help for a couple of years for now .. ...😊

Dr.Choueiri is the real deal for now and he works is in acoustics...I dont think that his plasma physics doctorate was needed for his BACCH filters revolution ( acoustics is his hobby) ...

 

I still do not understand why my system does everything that it does.

"Like the incredible imaging and coherence even, (Behind) me".

I trust you on this too ...

You know why ? 😁

Because with my system in my first dedicated room , among other things , tuned with 100 mechanically adjusted Helmholtz resonators the imaging and the soundstage was encompassing the listener position , and for some recording , because it is recording dependant for sure , the sound was coming behind me too and filled the room ... it is called acoustical control of the room , mechanical control and with some DSP tool it can help , but i was using none in my case ...😁

The money value of my system was low : Sansui amplifier, Mission speakers Cyrus, french battery dac SPS...Nothing miraculous with the gear but nothing too bad either ...

Myself unlike you as you said , i understood precisely why my system/room was doing what it was doing , because all was born from a mechanical tunable treatment and controls parameters of the room for my ears location, it is called acoustics with an (s ) ... Was it perfect ? No ...Was it stunnning ? yes ...

Try this audiophile top level recording in any controlled room and you will hear voices all around you even behind if there is mechanical right controls in place , the recording is the FIRST main spatial information source not the speakers choice...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR33bL5aNTk&t=2244s

No system/speakers can do anything without ears and room double controls ( mechanical and electronical as for the BACCH filters) and you need good recording for sure by the way ...

I dont doubt a second by the way that you gear is way  better than mine but so good it could be it does not replace system/room/ears control for the spatial information translation ... To reach perfection here we need Choueiri BACCH filters ...It is the beginning of the revolution you spoke about ...more to come for sure ...

 

 

 

Acoustics is the sleeping princess and the kissing prince is your ears/brain , the gear system is only the 7 working dwarves ...