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Subwoofer speed is in the room, not the box

First, if you like swarm, that’s fine, please start a thread somewhere else about how much you like swarm.

I want to talk about the impression that subs are fast or slow compared to planar or line sources.

The concern, and it’s correct, is that adding a subwoofer to say a Martin Logan or Magneplanar speaker will ruin the sound balance. That concern is absolutely a valid one and can happen with almost any speaker, not just speakers with tight dispersion control.

What usually happens is that the room, sub and main speakers aren’t integrating very well. Unfortunately for most audiophiles, it’s very hard to figure out exactly what is wrong without measurements or EQ capabilities in the subwoofer to help you.

So, there’s the myth of a small sub being "faster." It isn’t. It’s slower has worst distortion and lower output than a larger sub but what it does is it doesn’t go down deep enough to wake the dragons.

The biggest problems I’ve heard/seen have been excessively large peaks in the subwoofer range. Sometimes those peaks put out 20x more power into a room than the rest of the subwoofer. Think about that!! Your 1000 W sub is putting out 20,000 watts worth of power in some very narrow bands. Of course that will sound bad and muddied. The combination of sub and main speaker can also excessively accentuate the area where they meet, not to mention nulls.

A lot is made about nulls in the bass but honestly IMHO, those are the least of our worries. Of course too many of them can make the bass drop out, but in practicality is is the irregular bass response and the massive peaks that most prevent any good sub from functioning well in a room.

Bass traps are of course very useful tools to help tame peaks and nulls. They can enable EQ in ways you can’t do without it. If your main speakers are ported, plug them. Us the AM Acoustics room mode simulator to help you place your speakers and listening location.

Lastly, using a subwoofer to only fill in 20 Hz range is nonsense. Go big or go home. Use a sub at least at 60 Hz or higher. Use a single cap to create a high pass filter. Use EQ on the subwoofer at least. Get bass traps. Measure, for heaven’s sake measure and stop imagining you know a thing about your speaker or subwoofer’s response in the room because you don’t. Once that speaker arrives in the room it’s a completely different animal than it was in the showroom or in the spec sheet.

Lastly, if your room is excessively reflective, you don’t need a sub, you need more absorption. By lowering the mid-hi energy levels in a room the bass will appear like an old Spanish galleon at low tide.

erik_squires
audioquest4life
772 posts
 

@mijostyn "If subwoofers and main speakers are integrated correctly there is no reason to turn the subs up or down with any genre of music. A system that is tuned correctly does not care what genre you are playing. When I use the term , system I include the room in that category.

Most audiophiles are ball parking it with their ears which are extremely poor calibration devices. There is no substitute for measurement/ "

I completely understand the audiophile aspect but that is not the point I was trying to convey. I use technical measurements, not all ears either. It is entirely irrelevant for me to put an audiophile hat on when I want gut wrenching bass that overwhelms the room and senses. I am literally talking loud parties, disco bass, chest thumping rock, not wine sipping bourbon tasking listening sessions where I am trying to listen to the wood thwack on the drum set or listen for the shimmer of the cymbals. That all goes out the window for me when I am in party mode. Yes, a properly EQed system will provide some of what I am looking for, but this does not fit my lifestyle 100%. I believe OP implies not all things are equal for everyone. I have spent in excess of 100K in building a new listening room in our new retirement house with acoustics in mind. Trust me, I get the bass rationalization. However, I don’t feel the need to split the main audio signals when I can take accurate measurements and feel just as content in my own world. I have had drummers come to the house and listen to my system and tell me this was the only system they ever heard that played drums the most realistic they have ever heard, outside of a live drum session. That is enough for me. I will conclude that yes, the OP has a valid point and something that audio enthusiasts should be aware of but there are many aspects to consider when getting your system optimized. Been doing this for 40 years.

Remember, there is world of counterfactuals out there.

erik_squires OP
16,138 posts
 

@james633 

I find it silly when people chase bigger and bigger speakers at sky high prices for better bass, but refuse to try an actively passed sub system. 

Too many speaker buyers take the speaker specs far too literally and think that knowing the -3dB point of a speaker in an anechoic chamber will be close to what happens in their room.  From their perspective, if you want more bass  you need a speaker with a lower -3dB point.

 

mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 

@audioquest4life I listen to everything from Nine Inch Nails and The Red Hot Chili Peppers to Cherubini String Quartets. I have eight 12 inch drivers in a 16 X 30 foot room, each one powered by 2500 watts. I am into chest thumping as much as anyone. My subwoofers are EQed up about 6 dB so I can get the live concert experience at more reasonable levels. They run up to 100 Hz and are cut off at 48 dB/oct. I never change settings for any type of music and I can thump your chest into the next state and soar with The Lark Ascending, all on the same settings. The music has the choice of how it wants to sound.

@erik_squires Excellent! Speaker specs are worthless. Amplitude curves taken at 1 meter mean almost nothing. A speaker that goes down to 30 Hz at one meter might make it to 60 Hz in real situations. A speaker that is more omni direction is going to sound brighter, even sibilant in a room as compared to a directional speaker with the same specs. It is more important to understand what the design of the speaker is capable of and how to choose one that fits your needs and situation. Most people choose a speaker that looks good or suits their wife's sensibilities paying little attention to speaker design. They might look at the specs and if they do misinterpret them. Not all speakers are designed intelligently and some are awful.  

fitmannj
6 posts
 

@mijostyn "A speaker that is more omni direction is going to sound brighter, even sibilant in a room as compared to a directional speaker with the same specs."

I'm curious: Besides tending to sound brighter than more directional speakers in real room conditions, are there any other general characteristics that you'd attribute to more omnidirectional speaker designs? Any typical differences in, perhaps, crossover frequencies with subwoofers? For example, is there any crossover frequency above which the often-noted "airy" or spacious quality of omnis could be impacted? I ask because I have a pair of Ohm Walsh 200 Mk-2 (semi-omnis?) that I'm still trying to integrate with a pair of subs that I recently purchased. Thanks! 

audioquest4life
772 posts
 

@mijostyn

 

"I listen to everything from Nine Inch Nails and The Red Hot Chili Peppers to Cherubini String Quartets. I have eight 12 inch drivers in a 16 X 30 foot room, each one powered by 2500 watts. I am into chest thumping as much as anyone. My subwoofers are EQed up about 6 dB so I can get the live concert experience at more reasonable levels. They run up to 100 Hz and are cut off at 48 dB/oct. I never change settings for any type of music and I can thump your chest into the next state and soar with The Lark Ascending, all on the same settings. The music has the choice of how it wants to sound."

That is great, I mean fantastic, and I don’t doubt you are having an excellent listening experience...I just need more than that. Liberal volume adjustments of the subs via the SMS do that for me. These are two different perspectives, and my way works great for my use. My new subs are a quad of 18" which will be added to the stereo setup. If I can’t shake the foundation, then 21" drivers are next. This of course is way off topic. Look, I am not speaking against optimizing the listening room and integrating subs as best as possible. We all must take the time to do that ensure we are getting the best from our systems. Been there done that and I feel okay with the way I integrate the subs. It just so happens to be different than that of others. There is no one way or the highway or absolutes in doing some things, it is all subjective, regardless of measuring. My ears will tell me and if they contradict measurements, so be it. I am not going to lose sleep or fret about it. I just want to enjoy what I have and tweak like the rest of us to our "own" satisfaction.

Sounds like you have eclectic musical tastes, same here. I could easily listen to Rush, Queensrÿche, Avenged Sevenfold, Bad Wolves, as well as Miles Davis, Rodrigo, John Coltrane, 1812 Overture, Pachelbel’s Canon, Wagner, etc.

BTW, listen to Tears Are Falling from Kiss and hear that drum by Eric Carr, the drummer at the time. Incredible playing. Sadly, he passed away from cancer. This is the type of drum beat that I like. In your system, I am sure it will be thunderous.

Happy listening.

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