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New DAC Not a Dramatic Improvement?

Ok, So after much thought and asking questions here on audiogon as to whether I should get a new cdp or DAC, I decided on a DAC because I plan on implementing a music server with a Mac Mini. I got it last week and hooked it up so that I could do A/B comparisons with my cdp as is, and through the DAC. My cdp is a 1-2 year old Onkyo dv-sp405 dvd/cd player. At first I was impressed. The bass and vocals were more defined, and there seemed to be more space. Not a lot more space, but just a little bit more openess. The vocals were also moved forward in the soundstage and had more thickness. The thing is, none of these things were very dramatic. THe more time I have sat and listened and done comparisons on many cd's I find the results vary. On some cd's there is significant improvement, and on others, hardly noticeable. In a blind test, do I think I could reliably say whether I was listening to the cdp directly or through the DAC? Let's just say I wouldnt bet my life on it. I probably wouldnt even bet 20$ on it, unless I could hear the two back to back, and on some recordings, not even then.

Now I know about diminishing returns, but I would think the difference between a 150$ dvd/cdp and a 2K$ DAC would be pretty obvious. On top of that, My DAC is hooked up with Transparent Cables (MW Super) and my cdp with 50$ Monster Cables.

Continuing.. I expect some people with say that a good dac needs a good transport. Some will probably say that the dac is being held back by the onkyo as a transport. I have also compared the cdp through the DAC against apple lossless files played from my computer through USB. They are identical.

What could be the weak link? I do not want to say what DAC I am using but lets just say it is a very recent one and around 2K. It is from a very respected company and very well reviewed. My other gear is a McIntosh MA6450 integrated, gallo ref 3.1 speakers, transparent cables. Could it be that my amp is not very revealing? I am thinking about selling the DAC and getting a cheaper one (DAC MAGIC, PS AUDIO DL3) since I will need one for my Mac Mini anyway. Honestly, I just dont think I can justify having 2K in my current DAC for the minimal difference.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.
farjamed
mapman's avatar
mapman
21,924 posts
 
I did not catch which external DAC you are now using and comparing?

Assuming jitter is not the problem (since you say you have two sources that sound similar, this may not be a bad assumption, but an assumption nonetheless)just using any external DAC does not guarantee better results. That DAC may be better, worse or just different sounding than the built in one. Cost alon eis not an indicator. It depends on exactly which two DACs are being compared.

I would expect, in general, less differences could be heard between most SS DACS than if comparing a SS DAC to a tube DAC, like the mhdt's. A tube DAC will surely make a bigger difference.

Frankly, as lower cost DACs go, the only ones that I would consider for possibly making a clear big difference is the Benchmark for SS, due to its reputed jitter immunity and highly detailed presenation or one of the better known tube DACs.

IS the Mac amp really a likely culprit at this point?

It would help to know what DAC we are talking about for $2000. PRice alone does not guarantee a difference when it comes to digital processors.

I changed to the paradisea tube DAC from my Denon's internal DAC using a lowly Carver pre-amp at first and heard a clear and huge difference despite the fact that that pre-amp was still not letting everything shine through. i even heard a big difference just using different tubes in the Paradisea.

Then, when I finally changed to the ARC pre-amp everything finally seemed to come shining through!
sns
3,003 posts
 
Markphd and Tholt make some very good points. Audio Appreciation 101 is absolutely necessary.

The lack of bang for buck is at the heart of why I'm slow to change out components, way too confusing and endless circling. I tend to keep components for a long time, tweaking and modding to get the sound I want. Minimizing expenditures and maximizing individual component performance is the proven path for me.

Having said this, I will agree that equipment changes in the early days of building one's system is often necessary. There may be many wrong paths one may go down, you have to expect it so you don't get too bummed out.

I also don't hear the huge differences in digital equipment some claim. I've heard 64k prototype, Esoteric and Wadia GNSC modded digital, and while there are real improvements, not the best bang for buck improvements IMO.

You may simply be expecting to hear too much improvement, live with the DAC for a longer period of time, moving it in and out of the system, perhaps the improvements will grow on you, perhaps not. Also, at 2k you are really at the bottom of what it takes to hear obvious improvements, you may have to spend more to get the kind of improvements you're looking for. I know, not what you want to hear.

And then, it could be overall system resolution, I can't comment here.
mapman's avatar
mapman
21,924 posts
 
Tholt,

I am a big fan of the philosophy "if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But, if you are listening, and think it is "broke", then for all practical purposes it is and something needs to change. The hard part is figuring out what it is that needs to change.

I would agree that if one starts by carefully selecting speakers you like that fit into the target room, then you are in good shape moving forward to get it fixed without incurring unneeded expense.

If the $2000 solution doesn't work though, then think twice before trying the $5000 solution next. You better be sure.

Or, buy used and don't overpay or buy only equipment with an in-home trial policy wit money back guarantee. Then if you are wrong you can try something else without a financial hit by reselling and moving on.

Focusing on overall system synergy will get most where they want to be a lot faster and cheaper in most cases than just throwing money at the problem.
tok20000's avatar
tok20000
608 posts
 
Interesting thread...

If I were offered a choice between the best DAC in the world and the best transport mechanism in the world, I would take the transport any day of the week. Until you hear a DAC with a great transport, you really do not know what it is capable of. The digital cable also makes a big difference.

I have a MSB Plat III DAC/with volume control fed by a Empirical Audio Off Ramp Turbo2 connected to a music server I built (the USB cable I use is a Wireworld UltraViolet). This combination is quite amazing. And I strongly suggest using a computer/music server to anyone who can. You have to spend really big bucks to get better sound from a traditional CD transport to beat my setup (I'd estimate at least $10k used, $20k retail). Especially when you rip with EAC. One thing about the EA Off Ramp Turbo: This device takes forever and a day to break in (30 days of continuous play... seriously) If you buy one and hook it up, you might cry as it sounds bad new out of the box. It does sound amazing fully broken in.

Keith
mapman's avatar
mapman
21,924 posts
 
Tok20000,

Technically, a music server is not the same as a transport, but I hear what you're saying. I've also found that a feed from a music server can sound very very good.

In my case I use a Toshiba Vista laptop with Windows Media Player that connects to a Roku Soundbridge with external tube DAC over a wireless connection.

It has exceeded all my expectations going into the music server world with my system for the first time.

I also use the transport section of my Denon player/recorder to the same DAC. It too sounds way better than ever with the mndt Paradisea tube DAC compared to the internal DAC.
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