Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Many of us aren’t arguing the measurements. I’m arguing that Amir and ASR have a toxic culture that permeates other audio forums with condescending tones that have been normalized and promoted at ASR.

There is absolutely nothing toxic about ASR culture.  We thrive on information and knowledge about audio products, engineering and research.  If you walk in dismissive of all that, then you will get strong pushback.  It is no different than going to your doctor, claiming to know more than him because you know your body and he doesn't.  Most doctors would throw you out of their office if you said that.  The toxicity then, is yours, not ours or your doctors.

Many days we celebrate on ASR for discovering something new.  Latest example is a DIY speaker that blew us away in its performance despite its very low cost:

The speaker not only measured great, it sounded great in my listening tests.  There is nothing but happiness as a result of this.  Someone like you coming in to pick a fight is not what we are about.  But if you engage us that way, as I mentioned in the above post, we will hand your hat to you.  Not because we shout louder but because we have the research and data on our side. If that is cause for unhappiness, then don't visit ASR.

Then Amir, please reciprocate.

Amir has an opinion like anyone else.  He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science.  His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods.  Correct me if I am wrong, but Amir has never designed and built an audio component.  He has not demonstrated the ability to listen and review audio components nor has he been published outside of his own u-tube channel.  The most remarkable thing about Amir is that he has accomplished so much notoriety with so little.

And don't forget that he's right up there with there them doctors (appeals to authority) so 'natch, he knows more than you do. 

By the way, don't ever touch my hat. 

All the best,
Nonoise

I own a few speakers ASR has reviewed and agree with both the measurements and listening impression. 
 

this JBL 590 review is pretty spot on. Great for the money but so so in absolute terms. I have A/B my own 590s agents my own 4367 and 228be all in the same room. All have spins and some kind of review on ASR. I agree with pretty much everything stated on them. 
 

“It is more difficult for me to assess speakers in our living room but I thought the midrange and highs were unimpressive. Not bad. Or anything I could put my finger on. I just didn't enjoy all of my tracks as I do with very performant speakers. Again, keep all the caveats in mind as you read my subjective impressions.“

 

 

@tonywinga Amir, I believe was involved audio codecs in MS Windows, so he has some expertise in sound, etc. Amir could correct me, if I am wrong.

What audio device HAVE YOU designed? Since you are throwing shade, it is just fair.

Amir is using a Klippel device, which most audio companies are using for measurements now, since anaechoic chambers are so expensive to build and maintain.