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Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
prefab
55 posts
 

I think it is clear that Amir and the culture that he has built has created a lot of anger in the audiophile community. Largely because he and his cult of followers believe that their paradigm of judgement is superior and because they are extremely rude and dismissive of disagreement. And also because ASR has been successful in influencing a lot of less informed audiophiles. Mostly because it is easy to follow (Panther statues) and because he peddles a false sense of superiority as expressed in a language of derision. 

To people who love the hobby, this kind of pisses on the fun. And it is all a big lie. Measurements are nothing new. Debate on the role of measurements is not new either. ASR offers something different. Because if ASR we are now Audiophiles or Golden Eared Audio Fools. We are either "good" objectivists, or bad "subjectivists". This language is polarizing and invites disrespect. 

On top of that, I have seen them judge excellent gear that has stood the test of time and market as garbage. Without listening. Without considering that perhaps people are less interested in the measurement than their own perceptions. And this hurts the industry. Because it has trained a legion of audiophiles to hate what they might find to love. The Audio business is a tough one. The survivors are few. There have always been many pathways to audio satisfaction. Many of them, like for example, those who prefer the "British" sound, or those who love vintage 70's style, or those who love SET amplifiers. These are the muses that give the pursuit life and happiness. Not just the ones that measure to ASR standards. I personally have enjoyed all these things. And they have given me joy and pause to consider, while I celebrate and experience the music I love.

Amir aims to destroy that possibility. He wants to "set us free" from things that don't measure well. Even if we enjoy those things. 

I think it is also important to note that in a marketplace of competing audio products, there are many ideals being pursued by many brave, talented and hardworking entrepreneurs. Audio products are designed to sound great, with measurement as a consideration, without it being the end goal. Pass Labs is a famous example of a company who is open about this. This is actually the whole reason for the hobby. We like things that sound the way we like them to sound. We like options. We like to explore different sound approached. We like to hear our favorite music being framed by all these different things because each one lends insight into the music in it's own way. 

And some of us love shiny things. The world loves shiny things. Fashion and beauty are noble pursuits. My EAR Yoshino gear sounds fantastic to me. And it has a 1/4 inch think aluminum faceplate polished like a mirror. It looks awesome and I am proud to own it. There is nothing foul or unusual about this. It doesn't make me a fool. It makes me happy. If you want to try to make me feel foolish, that makes you an a**hole. It has nothing to do with me. 

 

 

Post removed 
prefab
55 posts
 

Also, what's with all the piling on Tekton. The guy has built a business in a very difficult market, from nothing. Businesses like his hang by a thread. He has a right to feel insecure. And responsible reviewers should be sensitive to that. I did not see the blog. But the Internet has some people thinking that they can empower themselves with negativity at the expense of the people who are taking real chances. They deserve to feel the heat of litigation. Tekton makes a budget product with specific goals that cannot be judged by a Klipel. I want them and every company like them to thrive. Because is gives us all more options in whatever direction we want to grow. 

audition__audio
1,519 posts
 

Amir actually believes that all things coming out of your stereo can be measured and even subtle differences will show up in testing. So I am done with this guy and ASR. What he does has merit but only goes so far. To me he represents a radical stance whose basic premise taints everything that follows.

 

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,193 posts
 

Good posts for me prefab

Thanks and welcome...

And about Amir, i must add that to evaluate really a piece of gear we must do it also by listening for sure but listening in the same acoustic under control  conditions and with the same other pieces of gear  we already know for a long time  because precisely "Golden ears" dont exist save as an insult by ignorant ..

If not  evaluated in perfectly well known acoustic conditions, how do you for the first time evaluate a piece of gear in unknown acoustic environment resulting from other pieces of gear you do know know much either ?... The music/sound  must be evaluated with a dedicated acoustic room, a system we know and a music we know...

Measures are welcome, ideology not so welcome...

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