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Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
ricevs
1,516 posts
 

Mahgister,

I don't need to read articles about sound to know how to listen.  I know how to tweak my system and room pretty darn well (considering money and space restraints).  I learn new tweaks all the time and I am open to anything direct and practical you or anyone can say to help my system be more transparent. 

I really don't care that Amir and the like believe the way they do.  I don't NEED to prove him wrong.  However, the truth should be told so that people can see what is real and not real.  Very simple.  Please keep fighting, if you desire, and trying to prove yourself (evenually you will see your own beauty and magnificence and not try and prove yourself any more) and prove Amir wrong.  I have no need to fight him or you......but I will point out what I see.....and that includes how we act with each other and how we talk to each other.  Everything from the souls perspective can be upgraded.....to the highest love and wisdom that is possible.

We can look at our motivation factor....every second....What are we wanting with the behavior and feelings that we put out.  Are we defending ourself or are we being of service?.......is it ego or agape?.....or somewhere in between?......and if it can be upgaded to more love (agape)...then how can I act differently to raise my vibration?......for everything is vibration.  Love and joy are the highest vibration and can be experienced continuously.....no....I am not there yet.  But I have met a few people who embody continuous love and joy.

You could talk forever to Amir and read him all the books in the world and it will NOT change his mind (ie...from my point of view....you are wasting your time).  This is how the ego works......it defines and defends......usually till death of the body.  Fortunately...we have infinite lifetimes to get it right.......and let go of our points of view.   For the only attitude that is worthwhile is love and gratitude.  Everything else is BS.  Amir is perfectly fine the way he is...same with you and me.  But we need to speak our truth.  Be a love addict....it is the most fun....and gives the best benefit to all.  Sending you much love.

We take ourselves far to seriously.  WE ARE NOT OUR EGO.....we are not our Characters that we play....we are not our opinions.....we are not our body....we are not our country...nothing anyone can say really NEEDS to hurt us (we make it up that we can be hurt by others...it is an illusion).  Of course, our bodies can be hurt.....but our emotional bodies....we have total control over them....(if you are awake and not acting from you subconscious mind)....We are here to learn this.....for......we are INFINITE spirit/love/joy....always were and always will be.  Everything else just fades away....because in the illusion of time.....everything dies.  When you live in eternity....you care less and less about opinions and what others think......you are too busy blissing out and blessing others.  Whatever you put your consciousness on......you become........What do you want to become?

I send everyone love, bliss and blessings.....forever.

deep_333
913 posts
 

I have no desire to criticize, castigate, or in any other way demean Amir. However, based on the fact that ASR’s reviews do impact (to some degree) a number of companies offering their good-faith best products to the audio enthusiasts’ world, I was surprised to learn that his company, Madrona Digital, carries Harmon/Revel products. [Note: I own Revel Ultima Studio speakers and think them to be marvelous.]. Consequently, I just logged on www.madronadigital.com to learn what other product lines Madrona Digital also carries. The fact that I could not discover any list of them disappointed me. I wish that he would disclose all product lines his company offers for sale -- for the laudable value of "transparency" if nothing else.

Spare the niceties, I am sure this miserable **** cost a lot of brands a lot of money over the years with his loser science turd measurements. Call his company and ask what all he sells. I am sure they will have "golfing panthers" all over the place. I really hope some of the big dogs get together and sue him into poverty. I want to see him cry and beg for donations from his minions to cover his legal fees all day long. That would be a lovely day.

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 

Ok you seem reading your last post a person of good faith...

I perhaps reacted too much...

But you wrote yourself in your ego bubble...😊

My discussion here was not about how to improve our system as you said nor about tweaks , this thread is about Amir ideology and ASR ...

Mahgister,

I don’t need to read articles about sound to know how to listen. I know how to tweak my system and room pretty darn well

Then you missed the point about my posts and artcles claiming that i was pretentious..

I just gave my opinion about why Amir is wrong grounded in acoustics hearing theory...

My articles are pure science not audio magazine articles about tweaks ..

 

I really don’t care that Amir and the like believe the way they do. I don’t NEED to prove him wrong.

Your claim here is contradicted by your own post just before criticizing my "ego" where you explained why you are not OK with Amir ideas...

The problem is your argument are simplistic repeated already by other people other than you before ..

My arguments are deeper grounded in science articles and in hearing theory then other people than you can be interested by the thread matter if you pretend now to be not interested by them ...

Then why attacking my alleged  "arrogance" or pretentious ego?  if my goal was not so much contradicting Amir  because  he dont discuss with me in this thread anyway , but my intention was to communicate to all people here new facts in acoustics very recent one you dont know yourself , neither Amir nor anyone here ...

I had the right to communicate objective discoveries without being attacked by someone who claim that i spoke by arrogance or only  for my "ego" satisfaction...

For what reason do you speak yourself ?  As Amir you are an expert with a site and something you sell ( your service) no ?

Me i spoke and dont sell anything , i spoke here as an ordinary educated audiophile ... No other motives... You cannot say that...

What are we wanting with the behavior and feelings that we put out. Are we defending ourself or are we being of service?.

Now before questioning my motivation why not questioning your own attack on my ego alleged pretentious claims?

Are you yourself so high in wisdom that you can decide for all people  in this thread which arguments benefit to all and which arguments does not benefit to all  ?

I dont think so...

I decided myself that new scientific facts matter and must be known, especially if they can be used as  rational argument against an ideology dominating the world right now :

manterialism and nominalism and techno-cultism and transhumanism ...

Then the new facts i asked people to read and  studies in the 4 articles above had nothing to do with your non sensical "peace and love" discourse after your attack on my "ego" ... What was your true motives ?😊

You seems a good person then i overeacted perhaps but i dont regret my reaction because it seems you must learn yourself a lesson here...

`"I am not alone to own an "ego" ...At least i dont sell anything to anyone here unlike you and Amir , i only want to discuss in good faith ...

I will repeat also that even if it was tough discussion with Amir he was  a gentleman by the way and never attacked my personality and character...

i am happy to say at the end that you seems also a gentleman at last ...

Thanks for the clarification but myself too i needed to clarify .....

 

my sincere wish for the best to you ...

 

 

 

 

 

deep_333
913 posts
 

@mahgister , Why don't you and this other son of some eternal mother, hilde, etc (all your apparent rivals) resolve your differences in private messages? Might be easier that way...

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 

I just solved a problem with ricevs here in a gentleman manner but clearly ...

 

 

Sorry but what if someone attacked you publicly about your character?

Will you invade his private mailbox?

I never attacked people but i answer directly immediately and where the post was : publicly .. ...

It is my own way to never entertain grudges and makes thing clear...😊

It is why just today , my problem with Hilde was so well solved i could thank him for an information he gave which is useful to all including me ... Only petty mind keep grudges... I am not such ...

 

Then learn this :

I pay people with what they gave me : kindness and a less soft reply but always a rational one if they attack any person here even when it is not me ...

Discussion here must be rational with no character attack . Period .

By the way i dont have rivals...

Read the four articles above and if you dont fall off your chair because it is important matter i will be surprized...

I dont consider anyone here as rivals but as friends...

The problem is some people dont like "intellectuals" or suffer from inferiority complex it seems... And are not interested by deep science ..

Hearing theories values and aspects are deep science and matter for all audiophiles...

This was my point linking together these 4 articles especially in this thread matter ...

Instead of thanks some attacked my character ...😊 and it was not Amir who always was a gentleman ...

 

 

@mahgister , Why don’t you and this other son of some eternal mother, hilde, etc (all your apparent rivals) resolve your differences in private messages? Might be easier that way...

 

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