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Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 

Ok you seem reading your last post a person of good faith...

I perhaps reacted too much...

But you wrote yourself in your ego bubble...😊

My discussion here was not about how to improve our system as you said nor about tweaks , this thread is about Amir ideology and ASR ...

Mahgister,

I don’t need to read articles about sound to know how to listen. I know how to tweak my system and room pretty darn well

Then you missed the point about my posts and artcles claiming that i was pretentious..

I just gave my opinion about why Amir is wrong grounded in acoustics hearing theory...

My articles are pure science not audio magazine articles about tweaks ..

 

I really don’t care that Amir and the like believe the way they do. I don’t NEED to prove him wrong.

Your claim here is contradicted by your own post just before criticizing my "ego" where you explained why you are not OK with Amir ideas...

The problem is your argument are simplistic repeated already by other people other than you before ..

My arguments are deeper grounded in science articles and in hearing theory then other people than you can be interested by the thread matter if you pretend now to be not interested by them ...

Then why attacking my alleged  "arrogance" or pretentious ego?  if my goal was not so much contradicting Amir  because  he dont discuss with me in this thread anyway , but my intention was to communicate to all people here new facts in acoustics very recent one you dont know yourself , neither Amir nor anyone here ...

I had the right to communicate objective discoveries without being attacked by someone who claim that i spoke by arrogance or only  for my "ego" satisfaction...

For what reason do you speak yourself ?  As Amir you are an expert with a site and something you sell ( your service) no ?

Me i spoke and dont sell anything , i spoke here as an ordinary educated audiophile ... No other motives... You cannot say that...

What are we wanting with the behavior and feelings that we put out. Are we defending ourself or are we being of service?.

Now before questioning my motivation why not questioning your own attack on my ego alleged pretentious claims?

Are you yourself so high in wisdom that you can decide for all people  in this thread which arguments benefit to all and which arguments does not benefit to all  ?

I dont think so...

I decided myself that new scientific facts matter and must be known, especially if they can be used as  rational argument against an ideology dominating the world right now :

manterialism and nominalism and techno-cultism and transhumanism ...

Then the new facts i asked people to read and  studies in the 4 articles above had nothing to do with your non sensical "peace and love" discourse after your attack on my "ego" ... What was your true motives ?😊

You seems a good person then i overeacted perhaps but i dont regret my reaction because it seems you must learn yourself a lesson here...

`"I am not alone to own an "ego" ...At least i dont sell anything to anyone here unlike you and Amir , i only want to discuss in good faith ...

I will repeat also that even if it was tough discussion with Amir he was  a gentleman by the way and never attacked my personality and character...

i am happy to say at the end that you seems also a gentleman at last ...

Thanks for the clarification but myself too i needed to clarify .....

 

my sincere wish for the best to you ...

 

 

 

 

 

deep_333
916 posts
 

@mahgister , Why don't you and this other son of some eternal mother, hilde, etc (all your apparent rivals) resolve your differences in private messages? Might be easier that way...

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 

I just solved a problem with ricevs here in a gentleman manner but clearly ...

 

 

Sorry but what if someone attacked you publicly about your character?

Will you invade his private mailbox?

I never attacked people but i answer directly immediately and where the post was : publicly .. ...

It is my own way to never entertain grudges and makes thing clear...😊

It is why just today , my problem with Hilde was so well solved i could thank him for an information he gave which is useful to all including me ... Only petty mind keep grudges... I am not such ...

 

Then learn this :

I pay people with what they gave me : kindness and a less soft reply but always a rational one if they attack any person here even when it is not me ...

Discussion here must be rational with no character attack . Period .

By the way i dont have rivals...

Read the four articles above and if you dont fall off your chair because it is important matter i will be surprized...

I dont consider anyone here as rivals but as friends...

The problem is some people dont like "intellectuals" or suffer from inferiority complex it seems... And are not interested by deep science ..

Hearing theories values and aspects are deep science and matter for all audiophiles...

This was my point linking together these 4 articles especially in this thread matter ...

Instead of thanks some attacked my character ...😊 and it was not Amir who always was a gentleman ...

 

 

@mahgister , Why don’t you and this other son of some eternal mother, hilde, etc (all your apparent rivals) resolve your differences in private messages? Might be easier that way...

 

benanders's avatar
benanders
228 posts
 

It all still boils down to that oh-so-common Achilles heel of N = 1. For listening pleasure, that’s all any audiophile needs.

For sake of what’s demonstrable vs. what’s merely perceived, it’s a joke.

audition__audio
1,381 posts
 

I have to thank deep_333 for using the word "turd" in a posting. 

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