why expensive streamers


@soix and others

I am unclear about the effect on sound of streamers (prior to getting to the dac). Audio (even hi-res) has so little information content relative to the mega and giga bit communication and processing speeds (bandwidth, BW) and cheap buffering supported by modern electronics that it seems that any relatively cheap piece of electronics would never lose an audio bit. 

Here is why. Because of the huge amount of BW relative to the BW needs of audio, you can send the same audio chunk 100 times and use a bit checking algorithm (they call this "check sum") to make sure just one of these sets is correct. With this approach you would be assured that the correct bits would be transfered. This high accuracy rate would mean perfect audio bit transfer. 

What am I missing? Why are people spending 1000's on streamers?

thx

 

128x128delmatae

I am curious at what point a typical digital signal is subject to being processed, changed, or influenced by noise as it travels from a streaming service via modem/router through to the DAC? How about in the case of the following digital streaming set-up:

  • Into and out of a server via Ethernet,
  • Into and out of a switch via Ethernet
  • Into a streamer via Ethernet (or fiberoptic) and out via USB
  • Into a DDC via USB and out via S/PDIF or AES/EBU
  • Into a DAC via S/PDIF or USB and out via analog cables to a preamp

Obviously the DAC converts the digital signal from digital to analog but which of the other preceding steps has a significant impact on the digital signal?

@jaytor 

yes, it’s the combined system, precisely.  We don’t care what a streamer sounds like without a dac or source, because it has no sound.  So if you say it adds noise to the system - i.e., it conveys noise that manifests thru the dac that can be heard - then you have to test it in the context of the system.  There is no alternative.  And that’s what the tests I’ve seen do.  The results of those tests demonstrate that noise from a streamer can carry thru to the dac, in certain cases, but even in those, it is a question as to whether any marginal increase in noise from a streamer was audible, relative to the noise that was coming from the dac.  In most cases that I’ve seen, with any decent streamer and dac, there is virtually no additional noise that comes from the streamer.  

Candidly, I find extraordinary the reluctance on the part of so many sophisticated audiophiles to follow this basic level of logic and analysis when contemplating spending thousands of dollars on what is really just an accessory (again, putting advanced processing like dsp, reclocking, and upsampling aside).  And as a result of this reluctance, a number of firms have dived into this niche market and, imho, are fleecing their customers.  Don’t get me wrong: their stuff can be beautiful and well-engineered, but without significant sonic benefit.  The only reason anybody should spend alot of $ on these niche players is if they think the UI is worth it (again, imho).  But I’m a Roon guy, so spending another dollar for somebody else’s UI is akin to pouring that dollar down the drain.

I am back to square 1. (I told you I was slow, thick and now also silly)

With bit-perfect data transfer music providers, what does an expensive streamer does better than a basic one? Is it the data that it sends to the DAC?

@12many 

Not sure what your dac is, but any differences you hear may have to do with different processing.  The N150 definitely reclocks, for example.  In addition, if the n150 is upsampling, but the Node isn’t, you’ll definitely hear a difference.  May not matter to you, since you like it better, but for purposes of lessons learned, it’s important to filter out (pun intended) any differences in processing going on.  

 

mdalton

316 posts

@12many

Not sure what your dac is, but any differences you hear may have to do with different processing. The N150 definitely reclocks, for example. In addition, if the n150 is upsampling, but the Node isn’t, you’ll definitely hear a difference. May not matter to you, since you like it better, but for purposes of lessons learned, it’s important to filter out (pun intended) any differences in processing going on.


Yes. And that in more layman terms means to compare the Node to the N150 is to compare two different tools - it might feel like a fruitful comparison, as it’s one of apples to oranges 😉

I too appreciate the wife-was-stunned-by-the-diff factor. But if it’s after a spouse was known to be fidgeting with kit, that’s just another likely expression of bias. Clever Hans was an instructive fellow.

No one seems to have an answer as to why data centers aren’t meaningful sources of perceptible signal degradation for music streaming services. Are all data centers imagined to be of equivalent quality and capability in a world where one streamer company can engineer several tiered devices that make sound remarkably different on the other end of the chain, based on whatever departs any given data center worldwide?