Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Naive objectivists have created a monster in ASR.

While put in harsh tone, your underlying impression is correct in that ASR is far more than me, or measurements that I do. We have become the gathering place for many experts in these fields to have most substantive discussions of audio anywhere. The level of knowledge dwarfs what goes on elsewhere. Witness how I was able to address @mahgister papers and have a discussion with him while none of you could even follow those topics.

We have large number of industry participants, designers, reviewers, and serious hobbyist who read and participate in ASR on daily basis. Go and ask any question from any area of audio and you get deepest discussion of it anywhere. Research will be cited, engineering design analyzed, methods of evaluation proposed, etc. All in a professional setting devoid of much mudslinging and rude behavior.

This has caused a movement in the industry by shifting analysis of audio outside of fluff reviews and marketing materials into "prove it to me." Companies are responding by building better products.

Mind you, there is still a lot has to happen but the movement has started and it is not going to stop because folks put their fingers in their ears and refuse to learn.

@markwd ”It’s very incongruous and does not correspond with ordinary science and engineering principles, or with even everyday logic per se.”

There is nothing ordinary about science or about the electro-magnetic world. When one only depends on electrical measurements for their full conclusions, what is missed is the other half of electromagnetism - the magnetic world. Electricity does not travel through the cable - it travels through the magnetic field surrounding that cable. ‘Ordinary’ science has not yet understood how to accurately measure the nuance and time flux of magnetic fields in the way they affect sound from signal transfer. This is why conclusions made purely from electrical measurements are a half-science. There is so much we do not know yet. True science is about questions, not mere answers.

@markwd Do note that manufacturers’ specs can be false and also that a specific unit may be broken. Testing by a third party like ASR can help to ascertain the reasons for the differences, not always perfectly, but they would add additional support to these apparently tendentious ideas about these products.’

There Isn’t anyone here that doesn’t agree with that. The concern is that Amir, with his unbending stance that listening cannot complement measurements for the now, until we know more about the measurement of magnetic flux, hugely influences audiophiles to believe the same. That isn’t science, as proudly stated in the name of his site, it’s indoctrination, or brainwashing.

 

In friendship - kevin

@kevn I think you are mistaken about several things in your post. And I am very aware of how electromagnetism works and the recent YouTube discussions of some of the more confounding aspects of electromagnetism. Like quantum mechanics, sometimes intuitions drawn from everyday experience seem a bit odd, but the equations typically serve as a bedrock for analysis, and we know that audio at low power and relatively low frequencies is fairly consistent in following relatively simple electrical law-like patterns.

First, Amir’s measurements of speakers are done by a microphone listening to the reproduced tone sweeps, so whatever special claims you make about magnetic flux are largely irrelevant to those measurements.

Second, measuring the signal at the front end of a cable and the back end and comparing them should show your suggested e-mag influences somehow...and they typically don’t (note careful addition of "typically").

Third, most folks don’t really know what "science" means in the modern world. There is a long trail of Philosophy of Science from Logical Positivism through to Popperian Falsification, then social models of science a la Kuhn and Feyerband, and then the actual praxis of science that is built up around institutions. Applying ideas derived from science to assess audio products is different from, say, figuring out how alleles affect phenotypic traits in molecular biology, but it’s also more similar to survey work in some of the social sciences. At best we can think of it as deriving from a commitment to deep scrutiny of empirical methods.

There’s nothing indoctrinating or brainwashing about that! It’s just a reification of being careful about everything and using tools with equal care.

Quote-"While put in harsh tone, your underlying impression is correct in that ASR is far more than me, or measurements that I do. We have become the gathering place for many experts in these fields to have most substantive discussions of audio anywhere. The level of knowledge dwarfs what goes on elsewhere. Witness how I was able to address @mahgister papers and have a discussion with him while none of you could even follow those topics."

Sure.But what that encourages in some people is buying products based purely on measurements rather than on how they sound.A friend brought his Topping D90 DAC over which he had bought on the basis of it being the "best measuring DAC ever".We compared it to some old 90s DACs and a $500 Sony CD player from 1995 and it sounded terrible by comparison.So the problem is you are measuring the wrong things.Or at least from a sonics point of view irrelevant things.

When someone conflates medical expectation bias with auditory expectation bias, you know they're really reaching. Even half in the bag as I am right now, I know that anyone succumbing to the "placebo effect" via a controlled medical study will/can claim an improvement in their condition but it's just a matter of time before they realize it's bumpkis. Their deteriorating health will prove that out.

If you're going to proffer that BS, then one must accept and allow the same curtesy to those who listen for changes over a long period of time or it will just amount to another parlor trick. Those subjects in the Harmon tests were found to need half an hour to adjust between tests as their first exposure to a new room thoroughly threw them for a loop. Subsequent tests kept that as the time frame. After repeated exposure, they got to where they could find some consensus as to what sounded pleasing.

The proof is in the long term listening. We always readjust when things settle down and that is always discounted as it throws out the "findings." Nothing like rigging a test based on rules set by those whose intent is to guarantee their results. 

All the best,
Nonoise