Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

@kevn I’ll note also that I think you may be misinterpreting the Fourier uncertainty principle in this particular context as I and Amir have mentioned to @mahgister in several contexts. The authors are showing that if you used Fourier analysis as a model for human hearing there are limits to its applicability because there is likely nonlinear bucketing that allows for discrimination of time/frequency in excess of what a linear system is capable of.

That in no way impacts the FFT of an audio spectrum which is an accurate frequency domain representation of the sounds up to its intrinsic limits, it’s just a showing that there are likely nonlinear ways we sort out sounds. The speculation is that the fine acuity is derived from evolutionary pressures and the mechanics of it are due to the shape of the cochlea (as I repeatedly discussed previously).

So when we focus on the specific topic of sound reproduction, the sounds so reproduced contain as much information as always (and with greater fidelity the more accurate the information is). It arrives at our ears and then we exceed the FUP. It has little to do with equipment design or assessing reproduction fidelity.

Still, it is an interesting little edge phenomena!

Yeah I was a bit taken by the "edge phenomenon" comment. That entire paragraph sets an interesting tone and sheds an interesting light on the "process". I am not on that page either. 

@audition__audio Well, we know that the experimenters were able to produce the test sounds and play them for subjects without difficulty using (likely) average quality audio reproduction equipment, so it's obvious that conventional reproduction systems are not masking the dynamics the subjects report, but I can change "edge" to "newly found" to remove any stigma the term invokes!

Nah, it’s just sophistry being used to baffle. Look at all the angles and attempts deployed, the feints, the parries, the side steps. Getting kinda boring.

@kevn Thanks for the cleanup on aisle 7. Your vigilance is commendable and most appreciated.

All the best,
Nonoise

I knew that Amir was a cofounder of WBF.  If he hadn't left, I'm certain that after years of derogatory statements of opinion as fact, he would be booted off.  He is just incendiary to most acute music lovers and listeners.  My friends and I tried PS Audio gear (for me the latest CD transport).  We disliked all of their products.  For less money, I purchased a Jay's Audio CDt3 Mk3-near SOTA quality product at PS Audio price.

My friend with a high end system ($400-$500K) had his 250 watt BHK Signature amp on a YG Sonya 2.3s and I told him (he was an electrical engineer and never performed music and rarely hears live music) it was poor match.  He tried at least a dozen amps and currently owns three with only the Moscode 402 AU sounding good.  

So, a Mola Mola which I haven't heard, should be better than a PS Audio (whose employees are very nice people, just like Synergistic Research whose products are mostly irrelevant in my system).  

Imagine testing a Lampizator Horizon or my Poseidon against a Topping.  The best test is hearing the Lampy in a high resolution system.  While my Topping D70s sounds great and even my wife (not a musician or audiophile) said it sounds like LPs, my Poseidon sounds even better at 50X the price.  It's like her Genesis G80 turbo 3.5 a is superior driving experience to her 2002 Lexus LS 430.  Both have a comfortable ride but she stopped driving the Lexus.  

There are many paths to great music reproduction of sound and most do not run through Amir and ASR, only a few do.  How about testing a Benchmark amp or flavor of the month Topping versus my Westminster Labs REIs?  If the latter loses in the test, the test is no way indicative of the huge chasm in quality of sound reproduction in favor of the REIs.  I was a tube amp user for 50+ years.  The REI amps are better, maybe a reason that the aficionados of them switched from low powered single ended amps and huge behemoth tube and solid state amps.  They may or may not be classic Class A amps as uniquely designed minimizing parts and wiring but they are small, cool  and drive 1 ohm loads with 800 watts sounding better than the several Class A tube amps I've used and heard.  Exquisitely.  What the goal of a Class D amp should sound like if it could.