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Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
amir_asr
777 posts
 

If Amir was a confident in measurements as he claims, there would be no reason to mount what the ASR faithful label as justifiable defensive responses here or in any other forum.

Huge amount of nonsense is discussed about audio here and in other forums.  You don't see me jumping in those discussions.  As they say, you do you.

Things change when you specifically start to discuss ASR as is the case here.  Some repeat the same angry chants thinking there is no one who is going to counter them. 

Forum software notifies me of topics that involve ASR.  I take a look and routinely find all kinds of misstatements which can trivially be shown to be wrong.  I post that with the response just being angry comments.  No explanation of science.  No explanation of engineering.  No data.  Just fantastical, self-grandiose claims of amazing listening abilities that has to be accepted, damn every bit of evidence to the contrary.  

If Amir is actually confident and secure in his knowledge, his first and only response would have been an invitation to participate in ASR, requesting only respectful discussion with assurance of the same from already converted ASR faithful. 

That is some strange logic.  Members posting here are not going to move over to some other forums to have the discussion.  They want to have it here and that is what I am doing. 

Regardless, if you are easily offended, I suggest just reading ASR.  Don't create an account, then jump in with both feet claim that only your ears matter and not science and engineering.  You will get a few chances to prove this but if all you do is brag about your super hearing and how that rules, then folks will push back hard.  They will do that to me as well by the way.  We have to be able to defend what we say on ASR.  No one is given a free pass day in and out to make claims like it is done elsewhere.

A few years ago a bit of good natured humor was directed at ASR.  Nothing rude or nasty.  The ASR faithful went ballistic in reaction and behaved as if a life and death battle had been initiated. 

The only threads I have seen here have been like this one: folks fighting with every rude comment and insult they can think of.  Humor is not remotely found.  Folks are super angry that anyone would dare to challenge their ideas of audio with science, measurements and explanation of engineering.  If this impression is wrong, I suggest you form your future posts to be different than what you have post already.

amir_asr
777 posts
 

I had always thought the suspension of disbelief was what guided the audiophile.

It is, even though stereo is woefully inadequate in doing so.  When I am at a piano playing, I am constantly reminded that no stereo in the world has ever captured that sound.  Two speakers have zero prayer of doing so.  Same as when my son plays his drums and my pant legs are literally moving due to incredible dynamics of that instrument.  

Fortunately the brain is creative and forgiving.  Even listening to a smart speaker in mono you detect a violin recording as violin and imagine it being there.  Your brain combines the sound with a lifetime of experiences to construct something that is not real, but desired.  It is this power of synthesis that I was talking about, not some illusion of reality that we sometimes get with our audio system.

amir_asr
777 posts
 

we definitely would know what noise is without measuring it, otherwise what would be the point in measuring it at all if we couldn't hear it.

It is the reason we do reviews: to help you buy a system and not have to buy each one to experience/evaluate it yourself.  If companies provided proper measurements and specifications, then this would not be necessary.  As Dr. Toole is fond of saying, there are more specifications on the side of a car tire than there is for audio equipment!

Another reason is your application changing.  You may have insensitive speakers today.  Tomorrow you may have a much more sensitive speaker and hear the noise.  Or get an in-ear-monitor or headphone.  These two category of devices have incredible ability to dig deep due to closeness to the ear and far larger dynamic range than any speaker.  

If you get a device that can be shown to have noise floor below threshold of hearing, then you are assured that it is going to be silent no matter what.  Earlier I talked about the Mytek streamer.  I showed in measurements how it was susceptible to noise pick up internally.  See how the subjectivist reviewer at Stereophile got hit with this:

Downstairs, with my desktop system, I noticed some low-level noise and hash, the kind that can sometimes leak through a computer soundcard, and also some hum. The hash was not audible from the balanced or headphone outputs—only the unbalanced. At normal listening levels, with no music playing, the hash was audible but low in level. Further investigation, including consultations with JA1 and JCA, revealed the hash source: RFI from my Linksys Mesh Wi-Fi network leaking into the audio, likely through the BBII's Wi-Fi receiver. When I navigated through the Network menu, disconnected from my Wi-Fi network, and connected via hard-wired Ethernet, the hash disappeared. The hum remained, however

Again, this is a $5,000 "high-end" streamer we are talking about.  Anyone reading my measurements would know that the potential for above noise and would get a streamer that is far quieter.  You may buy the Mytek and have it be quiet, only to produce noise when the configuration changes per reviewer above. 

Something is either well engineered or not.  Measurements of noise is one of the top indicators of this.

nonoise's avatar
nonoise
10,823 posts
 

But, the illusion of reality that we sometimes get with our systems is what the brain does when combining the sounds with a lifetime of experiences. A distinction without a difference.

I'm outta here.

All the best,
Nonoise

kevn's avatar
kevn
158 posts
 

Amir says “That frees them to site back and enjoy music.  I know I am.

- frees one to be lazy and not develop listening skills is what it does. And you already showed you don’t enjoy music, you’re in constant disbelief unless a measurement tells you it’s ok to sit back and enjoy it. The measurement, not the music, that is.

 In deep sadness - kevin

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