Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
  • And he determines who gets to perceive and hear correctly. 

The fact that you think these are my ideas shows how little you know about human psychology.  What I have explained to you has literally been known for more than a century.  Don't believe me?  Watch the story of "Clever Hans:"

 

Amir says “Search for High Fidelity and Google gives you this:
"high fi·del·i·ty /ˌhī fəˈdelədē/ noun

  1. the reproduction of sound with little distortion; giving a result very similar to the original."

And how do you know about distortion?  By measuring it.

  • How sad for Google to be used for definitions instead of proper sources of integrity. Even ChatGPT would have given better result.
  • First, google does not define distortion as measurable or heard, what is defined is its definition referring to sound and not signal.
  • The Cambridge dictionary: “the production by electrical equipment of very good quality sound that is as similar as possible to the original sound.
  • Merriam-Webster: “the reproduction of an effect (such as sound or an image) that is very faithful to the original.”
  • Collins: “the use of electronic equipment to reproduce a sound or image with very little distortion or loss of quality.”
  • The Oxford dictionary: “very high quality recording and playing of sound by electronic equipment
  • The Oxford advanced learners dictionary : uncountable.
  • Wikipedia: “a term for the high-quality reproduction of sound or images.”
  • Britannia: “the very good quality that some recorded sounds or copied images have.”
  • Longmans: high fidelity recording equipment produces sound that is very clear.”

No where is the word or term ‘signal’ used in multiple definitions over credible sources, from the origins of the term. How conveniently it has been twisted to suit an argument for measurement.

The Oxford advanced dictionary has an interesting take on high fidelity as “uncountable” - quite the opposite of measurable, in fact.

In amusement - kevin

Like learning how to use one’s ears and listening skills, putting thought, ideas and argument to truth takes huge effort…and a lot of attention to context, as much of context one can possibly find. It appears the rationalist side of asr cares very little for as many sources of integrity as possible to corroborate statements made, and instead conveniently picks what it chooses to falsify, prevaricate and basically spread untruth. Sort of like using measurements to justify measurements; philosophically inbred. And. far from just being scientific, represents behaviour that is not even technical, or rational.

In profound disappointment - kevin

Seriously, come to ASR to learn what really ticks in your audio systems.  

Once again on display, the massive ego of Amir that he and ASR are the fountains of all audio system knowledge.

The site is called Audio Science Review.

Where is it you REVIEW the state of Audio Science?  Where is the open-minded fresh examination of any of the "Industry Standard" measurements you perform and promote as settled science?  Pardon me, if that review was missed.

Measurements and reviews are one cornerstone of the site. 

Indeed, finally a true statement.

This is why so many of your audiophile friends frequent ASR.  

If one is a measurement zealot then ASR will grant them the label audiophile.  If one is not a measurement zealot with a different approach, then ASR attaches the label audiofool.  

When I get something new to review, I usually do a search to see what others have said about it.  Invariably I land on ASR with someone already talking about the device! 

Of course you all at ASR are always ahead of everyone else, and smarter.

It is an absolute pleasure to have so many knowledgeable people on ASR to interact with. 

There are people on ASR that are courteous and respectful.  There are also those that are rude, insulting and arrogant.  Why do you refuse to admit there are too many bad apples on ASR and refuse to control that situation?  That behavior is certainly a factor in why there is pushback.  How many times do you have to hear people stating measurements are valuable, but are turned off by the unfriendly atmosphere of ASR?  Clean up your own backyard before trying to clean up any other backyard.  

As I said, you do you but please don't keep repeating that talking point about measurements.

That is a laugh, accusing me of repeating a talking point.  You are the one repeating the same thing over, and over, and over ad nauseum.  You are the one using software to locate the next place to flood with your cut and paste talent.  You are the one constantly claiming to be the fountain of knowledge all should drink from, i.e. come to ASR to learn what really ticks in your audio systems.

One a scale of 1-10 with 10 being best, this thread ranks a 8 for tawdry entertainment, a 10 for learning about people for better or for worse, and a 3 for information useful to people seeking better sound and most of that has come from the accused.

 

“He who is without sin can cast the first stone”