Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Notice not one word about the sound of Mike's system, just that he couldnt tell the difference in cables. Plus this is just one enthusiast who may have been able to tell the difference if he werent in an adverse situation in which he knew he was being tested. Notice he (that guy) keeps mentioning JA from Stereophile but doesnt mention that JA isnt a fan of double blinds. 

"Using our testing methodology". HMMMM. 

For the record I have never been a fan of Transparent cables. If memory serves the big deal has something to do with reducing or eliminating the vibration of the conductor or was this MIT? Anything but transparent with the less expensive cables from my experience. So not what I would pick as a viable representative of higher priced cables. Although I have never had a speaker cable in any of my systems over $ 10K.

 

Amir_asr, thank you I stand corrected on that point. I'll let the rest stand.

Well, at least he's now using subscriber numbers as opposed to visitor numbers. It's like someone turned off the bullhorn.

You have Amir posting one Double blind test that went "his way" and somehow that justifies his point of view. On the other hand, you have maybe a hundred people around the world that are A/Bing cables right this very minute and find they are different.....let alone the thousands and thousands of posts all over the net. But, they are not following Amir’s listening test rules so all their observed and heard findings are null and void.....Basically, they have all fooled themselves in thinking they hear differences......so he is calling them all fools.

So, who is the fool here? The one who makes up stuff that cannot be proved and does no listening tests? Or the 200,000 people around the world that do listening tests and hear differences? I hope you all use your ears to decide and not your ego mind.

You cannot KNOW what something sounds like without LISTENING. Just like you cannot know what something looks like without looking.....tasting, smelling, touching, etc. This is not a mind game.....this is direct knowledge....to know something with our senses is the highest science....the highest. Praise be to our senses. We can trust what we hear......we can.

Although I have never had a speaker cable in any of my systems over $ 10K.

Sounds like you haven't elevated from mid-fi systems.  From my show report of Pacific Audio Fest, the Børresen room had the Ansuz D-TC Gold signature which costs $108K.

 

 

The whole system sounded poor because as you see, no cable lifters were used.  Electrons were looping needlessly and escaping onto the floor, the rack, etc.  This muddied all the detail as there were no micro-dynamics to speak of.  Soundstage was poor as well due to crosstalk between those cables.