Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Oops.  I misspoke.  It was the Transparent OPUS cable ($46000), not MIT.  Here is the link.

"And to cut to the chase, Mike could not identify the Monster from the Opus MM with any accuracy (nor the reverse, which also would have been a positive result if he had been consistently wrong) using our testing methodology. We stopped the test a little less than halfway through, I think we got through 8 A/Bs before we gave up."

And there were four total listeners, not three.

@amir_asr - Thank you.  I couldn't find a reference to the exact model of Monster cables, but there's a mention of a $1.2k price point.  Most likely they may have been the M2.x series or Sigma Retro Gold, which are both thick copper wires with gold terminations.  Frankly, this doesn't surprise me as they're comparable, aside from price and a carbon fiber 'vibration dampener.' 

This may be shocking to some, but when I lived in a tiny studio apartment in NYC, I experimented with alternatives and ordered Mil-Spec wire meant for spacecraft (silver coated copper in teflon) and appliance wire (12 gauge solid core copper).  I ended using the appliance wire with excellent results, although it was an absolute pain to work and didn't look too pleasant.  That said, I do enjoy fancy-looking cables and silver solid core for analog signals.

I do think there's some degree of truth to the marketing claims, but they're usually misunderstood and overblown.  For example, the recent trend of using gold wires as speaker cables (where gold is preferable for applications where corrosion is a concern, but poorer conductor than copper) or Rhodium plating everything.

 

When you set the filter to "off," the output level jumps up by some 4 dB.  This easily results in better perceived detail, air, etc.  This is why it is critical to match levels in such listening test comparisons. 

Failing that, you want to pay attention to measurements as it not only tells you about higher volume, it also shows that "off" starts to cut off the output starting from just 5 kHz.  There is a whopping 4.5 dB droop by the time you get to 20 kHz! If you had matched levels, you would have hopefully heard the much attenuated high frequency response.  Granted, some confuse this with "less digital" which it is not.

I should clarify that I was getting the odd tweeter cut-out across all filters and even when volume was set at -3.0 dB.  Admittedly, I don't measure as often as I should, but I think there may have been have been something else at play and possibly some conflict with my speakers' high pass filter and the D1se2's drop off in the higher frequencies.  I did cross reference frequency response to troubleshoot and it did go away once volume was set less than -5.0dB.  I also get what you're saying and the boost to the more pleasant frequencies may have worked well with my preferences and/or speakers.  Overall, it's a great entry into DACs and would recommend.  (I picked it up on eBay for $300 and tested in my MBL system with excellent results.)

I guess my point was that measurements are a good baseline, but listening and testing play an often enjoyable, sometimes frustrating role in the hobby.  My layperson observation is that people often take measurements as absolutes without diagnosing their own issues within their circuit.

Isn't this similar to audiophile marketing half-truths?  I do, however, value the idea of teaching people to think and make their own judgement calls.

@pynkfloydd Was it Bruce Brisson who developed the first Monster ICs the M300? That was the best cable for the price although it had soft, rolled off highs and limited resolution but it had a smooth, warm mid-range. Today, a comparable inflation adjusted cable that is extremely superior is Bedlen/Blue Jeans ICs (well, the XLRs). I use their XSRs in a $200,000+ system.

I heard 3 levels of Transparent speaker/system cable at an LA Show where the more expensive the system (up to $750K), the more awful the sound. Don’t even mention High Fidelity cabling with those horrible giant in-line magnets.

As to the Topping DACs, I’ve now heard 5, mostly early ones with the super high resolution but poor musical sound. The Topping D70s turns out to be their best. My best friend uses it in a modest priced system anchored by Von Schweikert VR35 export speakers. In my system with Lampizator Poseidon DAC/pre-amp which is $25K, the Poseidon is NOT 50X better than the Topping. Maybe 30% to 50%. I paid more as it was designed as a pre-amp and the Topping pre-amp is awful (probably just a cheap op-amp). As a DAC, this Topping is super musical osounding. It lacks the dynamic contrast, soundstage width and depth and music separation (instruments/voices) of the Poseidon but unless there is a head to head ccomparison, it’s a tremendous bargain and physically unimposing. The SOTA DAC costs much more than a superb one. I also own a (near or actual) SOTA CD transport in the Jay’s Audio CDt3 Mk3. For $5K, it is 5X to 10X less expensive than exotic French and Swiss transports or even upper cost Esoteric units.

As to phono cartridges, most of my friends use Dynavector or have multiple arms/cartridges. I have multiple tables for 78s and microgroove so I use a less expensive, less resolving 20X2 L with a SUT costing 3X, table at 7X and arm at 4X the cartridge price . The reason is it is a nearly universal LP transcriber. I own 31,100 LPs from 1950 mono to 200 45 rpm recuts. This relatively inexpensive cartridge provides great sound although not SOTA for the best mastered modern stereo LPs and great sound for my older, noisier vinyl 1950s mono LPs.

Just my two cents at this point of this mostly Amir/ASR discussion. Since my original forum, Amir began posting on Oct 16, 2022, now up to 754. He spends an inordinate amount of time on ONLY Audiogon forums involving ASR. I have 1,934 posts in 23 years from 2001. 3X the posts in 10X more years. He is OBSSESSED with a few recent forums. (I did learn from many forums I participated in, not like Amir who apparently learns nothing and knows it all).

 

 

I realize the OP was talking about ASR speaker measurements and I went off on DAC measurements but this post has turned into an ASR free for all.

 

This my be the most logical explanation of why all DACs don't sound the same and why chasing the best measurements doesn't produce the best sound quality.