SACD Player/Transport Choices

Gentlemen, I think what we’ve been arguing has become somewhat of misnomer. I’m in the process of further discovery on this issue, though I’ve drawn no conclusions, the term "native" is where the argument lies. I think we’re trying to differentiate a bit perfect DSD stream received by a compatible DAC as such with no conversion process involved. Whereas in PoD has become the standard protocol for transmitting packeted DSD via alternative connections and conductors and is then reconstructed as "native DSD" and is displayed as such.

I don’t believe our disagreement over the correct definition is intentional, just a miss understanding. I’ve been looking at a number of sources around the internet that describe these terms and I intend to quote them and present them here for everyone’s edification and clarification. We all deserve that. For instance...

Wikipedia -

"Direct Stream Digital (DSD) is a trademark used by Sony and Philips for their system for digitally encoding audio signals for the Super Audio CD (SACD).

DSD uses delta-sigma modulation, a form of pulse-density modulation encoding, a technique to represent audio signals in digital format, a sequence of single-bit values at a sampling rate of 2.8224 MHz. This is 64 times the CD audio sampling rate of 44.1 kHz, but with 1-bit samples instead of 16-bit samples. Noise shaping of the 64-times oversampled signal provides low quantization noise and low distortion in the audible bandwidth necessary for high resolution audio.

DSD is simply a format for storing a delta-sigma signal without applying a decimation process that converts the signal to a PCM signal."

DSD over USB
"An alternative to burning DSD files onto disks for eventual playback is to transfer the (non-encrypted) files from a computer to audio hardware over a digital link such as USB. The USB audio 2.0 specification defined several formats for the more common PCM approach to digital audio, but did not define a format for DSD.

In 2012, representatives from many companies and others developed a standard to represent and detect DSD audio within PCM frames; the standard, commonly known as DSD over PCM (DoP), is suitable for other digital links that use PCM. The 1.1 revision added protocol support for higher DSD sample rates without requiring an increase the underlying PCM sample rate."

Native DSD
"The definition of native DSD playback is somewhat a matter of philosophy. Generally speaking, it avoids the conversion of DSD data into multibit PCM anywhere along the reproduction chain. Many commercially available DACs now support native DSD."

i2s

"Inter-Integrated Circuit Sound (I²S, pronounced "eye-squared-ess"[citation needed]) is a serial interface protocol for transmitting two-channel, digital audio as pulse-code modulation (PCM) between integrated circuit (IC) components of an electronic device. An I²S bus separates clock and serial data signals, resulting in simpler receivers than those required for asynchronous communications systems that need to recover the clock from the data stream. Alternatively, I²S is spelled I2S (pronounced eye-two-ess) or IIS (pronounced eye-eye-ess). Despite a similar name, I²S is unrelated to I²C."

"@faustuss 

@mahler123 I’m sure it can decode DSD internally and output it through the analog outs but it can’t output it natively.

My DAC must be lying to me.  It is showing DSD 64 when I send SACD audio from HDMI to my DAC using an HDMI to i2s converter.  It sure as heck sounds much better than it does coming out of the Oppo."

I hope everyone finds this helpful and our exchange has been a lot of fun and I hope we’re all the wiser for our efforts. I know I am.  Have fun.

Great discussion, thank you everyone. @faustuss thanks for those excerpts. It seems to me the Oppo and Sony outputs may be DOP. But from @milpai’s early post, it looks like the Onix transport distinguishes between DOP over some outputs and native from I2S. I wish there was a definitive way to know what digital stream is coming from specific digital outs. For now, seems like the McIntosh MCT is the safer, more assured path to native DSD to an outboard, but proprietary, DAC (ie, the McIntosh DAC).

I posted our exchange in an Oppo Facebook group.  Without bruising your feelings, I’ll just summarize by saying that people were in disbelief at your comments.

 Let me just say that the best experiences I have had in audio appreciation have been with SACDs outputted over HDMI to my Bryston DAC 3.  I have some string quartet albums on the BIS label where I felt as though I could reach out and touch the players.  If you are at all interested in hearing the best SACD has to offer-at least for under $5K in transport-decoder- I would try it

@mahler123 I don’t know why my feelings would be bruised. I’m not here for a debate. I’m just trying to understand how to get the best out of SACDs. Maybe you are getting native DSD over HDMI. Or maybe it’s DOP, but still sounds sublime. Maybe it doesn’t really matter! Peace, pal!

Here’s a question: Does anyone have a DAC that indicates a difference between DSD native and DOP? Does the Bryston DAC3? Again, maybe it doesn’t really matter, but I’m curious. 

Boy am I every glad I stumbled across this thread. A lot of knowledgeable members on the very subject I am curious about. 

Currently own both an Oppo BDP-95 and a UDP-205. I love them both but I do wonder how long they are for this world. Right now the 205 is serving as both my Blu-Ray player and my CD/SACD transport. I have had difficulties getting the UDP to talk to my DAC, a Ferrum Wandla, with an eBay HDMI/I2S converter in between (similar kind as @big_greg mentioned) but that is very much a WIP due to an outstanding DAC support issue. So I can’t yet confirm what @mahler123 has reported - that the UPD-205 is definitely sending true DSD info over the HDMI out. (Going PCM via coax to my DAC, np.)

On the future proofing side I am looking at getting a backup SACD/CD transport in the event Oppo will no longer support my spinners. Based on the above I’m on the fence as per the Onix Zenith that @hifipassion has or the Reavon X110 that @richardbrand mentioned. Prima facie it would look simple - the Reavon - given that I plan to play all kinds of discs. It’s also half the price. But two considerations remain...

1) How long will the Reavon company be around to support said product (Shanling I do not believe is going anywhere any time soon - they big.)?
2) So do I purchase the Onix and just find a cheap 4K spinner down the road and own two types of transports?

Now if I had to distill down my shotgun post down to an ask I guess it comes down to which of these two will be the better SACD/CD transport for DSD over I2S and info on this is not easily found out there. This is where I would welcome some input from the thread (And no I am not going to fight 199 other people to buy one of Paul’s $8500 swan song signature machines.)

Look forward to what others have to say here. Hope it’s not a silly ask. Thx in advance.