SACD Player/Transport Choices

Great discussion, thank you everyone. @faustuss thanks for those excerpts. It seems to me the Oppo and Sony outputs may be DOP. But from @milpai’s early post, it looks like the Onix transport distinguishes between DOP over some outputs and native from I2S. I wish there was a definitive way to know what digital stream is coming from specific digital outs. For now, seems like the McIntosh MCT is the safer, more assured path to native DSD to an outboard, but proprietary, DAC (ie, the McIntosh DAC).

I posted our exchange in an Oppo Facebook group.  Without bruising your feelings, I’ll just summarize by saying that people were in disbelief at your comments.

 Let me just say that the best experiences I have had in audio appreciation have been with SACDs outputted over HDMI to my Bryston DAC 3.  I have some string quartet albums on the BIS label where I felt as though I could reach out and touch the players.  If you are at all interested in hearing the best SACD has to offer-at least for under $5K in transport-decoder- I would try it

@mahler123 I don’t know why my feelings would be bruised. I’m not here for a debate. I’m just trying to understand how to get the best out of SACDs. Maybe you are getting native DSD over HDMI. Or maybe it’s DOP, but still sounds sublime. Maybe it doesn’t really matter! Peace, pal!

Here’s a question: Does anyone have a DAC that indicates a difference between DSD native and DOP? Does the Bryston DAC3? Again, maybe it doesn’t really matter, but I’m curious. 

Boy am I every glad I stumbled across this thread. A lot of knowledgeable members on the very subject I am curious about. 

Currently own both an Oppo BDP-95 and a UDP-205. I love them both but I do wonder how long they are for this world. Right now the 205 is serving as both my Blu-Ray player and my CD/SACD transport. I have had difficulties getting the UDP to talk to my DAC, a Ferrum Wandla, with an eBay HDMI/I2S converter in between (similar kind as @big_greg mentioned) but that is very much a WIP due to an outstanding DAC support issue. So I can’t yet confirm what @mahler123 has reported - that the UPD-205 is definitely sending true DSD info over the HDMI out. (Going PCM via coax to my DAC, np.)

On the future proofing side I am looking at getting a backup SACD/CD transport in the event Oppo will no longer support my spinners. Based on the above I’m on the fence as per the Onix Zenith that @hifipassion has or the Reavon X110 that @richardbrand mentioned. Prima facie it would look simple - the Reavon - given that I plan to play all kinds of discs. It’s also half the price. But two considerations remain...

1) How long will the Reavon company be around to support said product (Shanling I do not believe is going anywhere any time soon - they big.)?
2) So do I purchase the Onix and just find a cheap 4K spinner down the road and own two types of transports?

Now if I had to distill down my shotgun post down to an ask I guess it comes down to which of these two will be the better SACD/CD transport for DSD over I2S and info on this is not easily found out there. This is where I would welcome some input from the thread (And no I am not going to fight 199 other people to buy one of Paul’s $8500 swan song signature machines.)

Look forward to what others have to say here. Hope it’s not a silly ask. Thx in advance.

@bergenma

Great questions that probably bother silver disk fans! 

I bought a Reavon UBR-X200 on a whim after my Marantz Universal Disk Player (UDP) carked it.  Just went to a couple of HiFi shops nearby, The first told me I did not want to play SACDs (I have hundreds) and the second had just taken delivery of their first Reavon, which I had never heard of.  I bought it anyway, because functionally it appeared to do everything I wanted.  

There was also the Reavon UBR-X100 but it did not support SACD at all.  The UBR-X110, which functions as a SACD transport, had not reached the market at that time.

My main left and right channels were played through Quad electrostatic speakers (2905) powered by a Krell class A amplifier (KSA-80) with an 18" Velodyne subwoofer.

My Reavon is connected by one of its HDMI outputs to my Audio Visual (AV) preprocessor, a Marantz AV8802.  The Marantz tells me exactly what is being input including the connector, format and bit rate.  The Reavon absolutely can output DSD 5.1 (Direct Stream Digital) natively over HDMI, as well as PCM from Pure Audio Blu-rays, Dolby Atmos, etc.

I also hooked up the seven analog output pairs to the Marantz using RCA connectors, as well as the two channel analog output using balanced XLR connectors.

The HiFi store promised me that CD playback would be as good as my venerable Sony player over balanced XLR, that Pure Audio would be as good as my old Marantz UDP, and that SACD analog output would be as good or better than the Marantz.

No problems with CD and Pure Audio playback, but when I switched to SACD I got full volume white noise (or pink?).  The manual was wrong!  Once sorted, the multi-channel SACD sound was way below what I was used to.  I checked the specifications of the two-channel and multi-channel Burr Brown DACs.  Neither mentioned DSD which is a good indication they cannot natively process DSD.  I wrote to Reavon and they confirmed multi-channel DSD is down converted to CD quality PCM.

The two-channel Reavon DAC has better specifications, so I thought 2-channel DSD might be down converted to a higher resolution PCM but no, still just CD quality.  No review that I have read mentions this, but to me the poor sound quality was almost instantly apparent.

My Marantz AV8802 on the other hand has 8 AKM 2-channel DACs similar in specification to the ESS Sabres used by Oppo.  They process DSD natively. Using the Reavon as a pure transport works a treat when the Marantz is doing the analog conversion.

By the way, changing the output formats on the Reavon is painful: the machine has to be restarted.  Now I just leave it on HDMI output, no problems.

I don’t know how good the Reavon UBR-X110 is - the power supplies are not as advanced as the X200 for a start.  The addition of a 3-mm thick steel baseplate makes both machines feel like quality though!

There are other derivatives now on the market including Magnetar which use the same Mediatek System on a Chip (SOC).  I believe Cambridge Audio has one as well.  Pioneer seem still active, as is Panasonic but pride stops them offering rival Sony’s SACD format!  There was also a Chinese-brand but I have forgotten its name.

I have a couple of very cheap Sony UDP transports, but I have not done a direct comparison.  I suspect they are just as good, sonically.

Does I2S support multi-channel DSD?  Until recently I had never heard of I2S which dates back to 1957.

My final thought is that the value-for-money offered by big manufacturers like Sony and Denon/Marantz far exceeds what niche manufacturers can offer, unless they piggback on others R&D, such as the Mediatek SOC.