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How Much to Spend on Turntable, Cart., Phono Pre

I was inspired by the other active thread ‘How Much to Spend to Make Vinyl Better Than Digital’ and have a similar question, but in a different context (my sysytem) and didn’t want coopt the other thread.  I would really love some advice about what sort of turntable, cart, phono pre, I need to shoot to be at least as viable (or more so) than digital in my system.  To help you give me advice I will give you some background.


I am relatively new to this hobby (less than four years in), so I am in many ways just a begnner, and particularly with respect to the world of turntables (I grew up in the CD era of 90’s) but at the same time, I’ve thrown myself into learning, and I’ve come a long way in a short time.  
 

While I have upgraded gear (Focal Kanta No.1, SVS 3000 micro subs x2, Lta Microzotl preamp, Pass XA25 amp, NAD m10v2 for streamer/Dac/Dirac), my two biggest revelations so far have been the profound benefits of room treatment (panels now cover nearly every inch of the walls and ceiling in the room) and the wonders of Dirac in managing bass, focusing imaging, and dialing everything in to taste.  I am in a place where I am now happy with my digital setup, but I would like to explore vinyl.  So….

I think my question is what sort of turntable, cartridge, and phono pre would  I need to make my vinyl setup substantially different enough (in a good way) and at least equally enjoyable (if not more enjoyable) as my digital setup?  


My only experiences with turntables (aside from short one off demos at dealers where I don’t know the room or system) come from before I was 12 years old when my parents owned one (doesn’t really count), and my ownership of a Victrola Stream Carbon  with an internal phono stage and Ortofon 2m Red Cartridge that I later upgraded to an Ortofon Black cartridge.  The cartridge upgrade was very nice and took me from not really liking vinyl because it was too veiled to enjoy it much, to finding it viable to listen to but not really feeling it was better. I guess I was hoping for more somehow.  Unfortunately, the turntable bit the dust (something electrical since it wont turn on, but its probably not worth repairing now) before I treated my room, switched speakers (Focal Aria to Kanta), switched amps (Parasound New Classic 2250v2 to Pass Labs Xa25), preamp (none to LTA Microzotl).  Due to this, it is hard to say for sure what I would get out of my old table if it still functioned, but I guess I was hoping for more magic at the time.  What I got was a sound that was sometimes more real or natural sounding (good), but often thinner and less resolving (I’m sure the phono stage sucked, but cannot say for sure since I had no comparables and it was non-defeatable).

I guess what I was hoping for then, and am hoping to get now, is something more akin to what I got when I added the LTA preamp to my chain and the tubes brought an infusion of naturalness and believability (i guess that’s how I’d class it) to the sound.  I want to know what turntable, cart, phono stage, can give me an alternative presentation that is a compelling alternative to my digital setup that I am very happy with.  My current digital system is vocally forward and very open (both to a degree naturally, and also due to my dirac EQ).  I would like the vinyl setup to emphasize vocals and make them as open, emotional, and lifelike as possible.  I am not afraid to spend a bit if it gets me to the finish line, but at the same time, I don’t have unlimited funds, and want to be sensible and invest in what actually moves the needle (literally and figuratively) not just go wild.  I view my other components as likely to be around for the foreseeable future.

I have watched about everything logical on Youtube, but comparisons between tables, carts, and phono stages are limited and difficult to interpret.  I have found chatgpt to be much more helpful.  

In my exploration I have considered the technics lineup (all new models really, 1500c,1200gr2,1300g,1200g) but chatgpt seems to suggest these would present more similarly to a more balanced digital setup and provide great balance and perfect timing compared to belt driven tables, but may not fit my desire to achieve an alternative to my digital setup and emphasize the naturalness of vocals (do you agree?) and suggests they may not be the best match for me.

I have explored Rega, particularly the P8 (on the assumption that the 8 is better than the 6 and don’t know if I want to make the budget stretch to the 10).  Chatgpt tells me the pace, rhythm, and punch are stars here, but there might be better options if vocals are my priority (do you agree).

I also am considering VPI, possibly something like VPI Prime X.  Chat gpt suggests this will provide great bass foundation and depth of sound, but again may not provide the vocal emphasis I am seeking (do you agree?)

I also investigated Clearaudio, but I was also not told this was a great match.

Chat gpt seems to recommend that I take a hard look at Michell turntables, which leaves only two within my budget the Tecnodec, and the Gyro SE.  Chat gpt says either will better align with my preferences for a clear alternative to my digital setup while emphasizing open organic vocals (do you agree?).  It suggests the difference between the two may not be that huge, but that the Gyro will bring more soundstage depth into play.  Interestingly, it suggests that the Tecnodec would be a better choice given what i am looking for in an emphasis on warm,open,  emotionally engaging vocals over even more expensive models from Technics 1300g or 1200g, or the Rega P8 or P10.

If I were living life according to chat gpt, i would opt for the Michell Tecnodec or Gyro SE, but living is for humans so I thought I would consult the humans here.

Frankly, I don’t even know if I should be selecting a turntable first, or if the phono stage or cartridge could/should be chosen first in this case.

I think might like to initially use my Ortofon 2m black and then swap it out for a great moving coil cartridge which will allow more initial investment in table and/or phono pre (I heard the Kiseki Purple Heart cartridge on a table in Hong Kong that I thought sounded great, but who knows how much can be attributed to that as compared to phono pre, room, speakers, amp, preamp, etc with which i was not familiar). But if this is the wrong approach I am willing to rethink this as well.

I frankly know nothing meanngful about phono stages and cartridges because despite trying reasonably hard to educate myself there are so few comparisons to be had, and I have so little experience or reference points, it just feels like guessing (sort of like I did when i grabbed my 2m Black and I still don’t know if I guessed right because I had no comparison aside from my prior Red).  The only thing I might say is if guessing, I might try a legit tube stage since  i loved everything my LTA preamp brought i didn’t have before, and if splurging on a cartridge I might try the Kiseki Purple Heart because I thought the system it was in sounded amazing the one time I heard it.  As you can see, these are not exactly anything close for a sound basis for making costly decisions.

I would love to hear your thoughts about what to consider (for everything), and which component you would lock in first if you were in my shoes.  Thanks!

 

 

matthewfpalmer
matthewfpalmer OP
19 posts
 

@gano  Sorry, it took me so long to get back to your comments (its been a wacky week for me).  

You have given me a lot to think about.  I will take my time and continue to sort through ideas and your suggestions and ponder things over.  I may be overthinking this (I often do, its a character attribute that is both a blessing and a curse.  I would like to hope that Gano’s observation in his first post is true, that any $1500-$2500 turntable will sound awesome.  If true, I really cannot ho wrong because my turntable bar was set pretty low previously.  
 

@dynacohum To answer Dynacohum’s question, yes I do think my room is on a concrete slab.  While my room is carpeted, the adjoining rooms have hardwood floors that are glued down and there is zero give in the floors (compared to all the nailed wood floors I have previously encountered.  I am thinking they were glued because there is concrete below rather than a wooden sub floor to nail to.  I really don’t know for sure though.  My room is a repurposed family room at the back of the house that has built in shelving for a tv and vcr (house built in 89) that is directly behind my listening position.  The room was originally designed to have seating along the sides of the room and people to look sideways to the front of the room towards the fireplace, and sideways to the back of the room to watch tv.  Now that built in is perfect for a turntable sitting in the tv hole (think old school 36” tv) and the shelf below designed for the vcr is perfect for a phono stage.  What is really nice is that it is behind my listening position and opposite the speakers and electronics.  Because it is built into the wall and floor and designed to hold those old super heavy tv’s, it is a great place to place a turntable to keep it from getting vibrations because it is built really solid.  In the time I used my victrola stream carbon (before it died), I cannot recall even one instance of human activity (like footfall or my brother’s children jumping around even when near the turntable for instance) being picked up by the turntable, which shows how solid it really is.  It’s possible this could change with a new table, but I wouldn’t expect it since the old one was hardly a standard bearer.

I have a couple follow up questions:


How much character do you believe there really is in the table/arm alone at similar or somewhat similar price points for tables?  I mean, obviously, better tables are better at rejecting vibrations than budget ones, but how much flavor does a table/arm add if cart and phono pre are the same?  For example, how much different do you believe a Rega P8 will sound to a Michell Tecnodec or Gyro SE or VPI Prime X with the same cartridge and phono stage?  Are there major differences to be had here?  There seems to be a lot of inconsistency on this point out there.  And do the direct drive Technics tables really sound fundamentally any different from belt drive?  Again, there seems to be a lot of inconsistency on this point.

Has anyone here ever compared different tables with same cart and phono stage side by side?  If so, was your experience?

@fatdaddy2  While in principle it could make sense to work with a dealer, my location in a middle sized city in the middle of the midwest makes it challenging, but worth investigating.  I just historically had a hard time in those places because they tend to have few options and tend to tell you what they do have is perfect for you.  This will be doubly true with turntables since they won’t have many.  While it does make sense to listen, a demo in another room in another system with another cartridge (probably) has limited value, and any in home demo will come with more pressure than I probably want, and I am already wincing at the pitch for cables, interconnects, and power conditioners that will ensue…

The other way to look at this is, it may not even matter.  If any flavor would be enjoyable, it may not be necessary to fully comprehend the others to enjoy one.  Perhaps I should be looking to buy on appearance and/or value proposition of buying opportunity instead of attempting to ascertain a house sound?

 

 

 

 

dynacohum
742 posts
 

Knowing you have stable floors means you can buy anything you like!  I had a 30+ year run with a Well Tempered Turntable and Tonearm. I would recommend one for anyone. SOTA is another great option, and Origin Live arms are pretty great. 

gano
750 posts
 

no worries, best luck to you @matthewfpalmer 

As a comment on your questions: in my room, there is no vibration (that I sense or hear). I can hear significant differences between cartridges and phono stages. Next in importance is the speed and then the tonearm and then the mat. I can’t hear differences between tables in my price range. Your last point to go by appearance is what I did. As well as reliability. Several times I forgot to turn off my fully manual table for days and it’s still spinning like nothing happened... 

superhonestben
215 posts
 

Get the best sounding table/arm you can. go with modest cart if need be, can always upgrade later etc,  source 1st.....I had way back when a Linn lp12/black koetsu  cart thru a Mitch cotter stepup thru a NAD 3020 with ADS 420 bookshelf speakers( all of $350.00 a pair) kicked serious ass !    SOURCE 1ST

panzrwagn's avatar
panzrwagn
655 posts
 

Here's 4 pairings to consider. Each represents a different level of value, and each needs no apologies in its price class. 

1) Audio Technica AT-LP-7 and AT 520EB cart. The LP-7 is simply the best table I've found under $1000. Everything is there - good plinth, good tonearm with all necessary adjustments including arm height, heavy platter, and it looks and feels like a far more expensive piece. Some will recoil in horror at the onboard preamp, but it works, has an MC setting if you upgrade carts, and can be bypassed if you go with an outboard unit. The stylus is a modest elliptical, but AT offers multiple upgrades there as well. A shockingly good value.

2) Rega P3RS. Rega are a world unto themselves with their low mass/high stiffness designs, but their tonearms are undeniably great - better than any others in the mid-price range. At $1795 The P3 is first step in the line with the RB330 arm, an external power supply, and the Rega-made ND5 MM cart. I've not heard it, but it is well specced with a nude diamond and low inductance coils which should give it better dynamics. Pair that with a MoFi Studio Phono and a decent set of cables and you should be set for under $2500.

3) VPI Super Prime Scout. 180 degrees away from the Rega, VPIs are heavy. The platter weighs 22Lbs, the separate motor looks like it could run a washing machine, and the multi-layer plinth is 2" thick. The arm is much longer than most at 10.5" for lower tracking error with Shibata and Microline stylus types. It is also a unipivot design with a 'reverse missionary' bearing which freaks some people out because they wobble when handled. They also have the lowest friction and zero issues with loose bearings or bearing chatter. (Full disclosure: i have one and have had zero issues or complaints with it.) IMHO most complaints about unipivot arms come from people who have never owned one. The build on a VPI tells you've moved up into an entirely different class of gear. I'd pair this with a Hana SL MkII moving coil. The SL MkII is a phenomenal cart, and at $850 you'd have to spend 3X or 4X at lrast for even an incremental improvement. In the interest of economy, I'd probably stick with the MoFi Studio, No one is building better value phono stages. Later, you can consider upgrading if feel the need. Negotiate a bit and you could get this package for about $5,000. 

There lots of other options and opinions on this, to be sure. I would avoid too exotic and esoteric used gear for support reasons, and because you're new to this. Lots of potholes on that road. I've been a turntable junkie for over 50 years, and think I've come by opinions with a lot of experience. Good luck with your vinyl journey ry and always, enjoy the music.

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