Vinyl's Noise Floor

Hi everyone,

It seems like the Hatfields and McCoys are at it again.

I really don't want to cause any hard feelings but the truth must be told. To Pbb, whether the noise floor ceases to exist with a quality rig or we listen around it or there is some brain phenomenon where the noise floor isn't perceived is largely irrevelent. The point to be made here is that analog has brought an enjoyment factor we vinylphiles can't find anywhere else.

First of all, I want to inform this intelligent group that I'm not an expert on electronics but I've found through listening that a lot of what is going on is being ignored to the detriment of this hobby we all love so much. I have many more questions than I have answers and hope that before I leave this life these mysteries are solved.

Get a lead fishing sinker and a marble. Toss each one on the sidewalk. You then may get an understanding of a momentary imperfection in vinyl with the marble being the result of playback on a lesser turntable and the lead sinker being the same imperfection played on a quality rig. Knowing quite a lot about mechanics I will state in no uncertain terms that lesser rigs echo dirt/static/imperfections making them much more audible.

Through personal experience I have found that lesser cartriges play back noise with gusto equal to the music.

Some phono stages amplify the noise floor and some don't.

Crossovers behave the same way. Lesser ones enhance the presence of the noise floor and others don't.

I really feel sorry for the folks that post analog questions as, IMHO, they are not being well served. Case in point. I know that many of the turntables recommended here are of way less musicality than the LP12 which I have owned for over thirty years. It seems cool to be down on Linn. Yes, I REALLY am offended by the manufacturer and many of the retailers who represent this product line. I have even stepped up to the pump and sent Linn a critical letter about the state of affairs in this country. No, I wouldn't buy a new Linn tt today as I feel they are way over priced, but used is an entirely different story.

To those that are considering getting into vinyl I suggest you follow TWL's lead and buy the Teres. Also, if you aren't going to get into vinyl correctly, then don't do it. You won't be happy and if you stay in the vinyl game it will just cost you more in the long run. Yeah, you may find an older Thorens and do it on a real budget but it's unlikely since the sun, the moon and the stars rarely line up.

With the vast majority of my vinyl library what is referred to as the noise floor is simply silence. This is with an analog rig that the idealogues love to hate. Sure, a VPI or Rega will sound superb with great pressing as will my LP12 but I maintain that on lesser recordings my Linn will blow them away.

Grab a few of these recycled vinyl American pressings and use them to audition your choices. Only using the best software is what the retailers want you to do.

Active crossovers have done more for my enjoyment factor REGARDLESS OF SOURCE than any other improvement I have made since the purchase of the LP12. Most of my complaints about digital are minimized through my active system. Of course, this is another concept promoted by Linn so will be largely ignored by the idealogues. Does this sound like politics, or what?

TWL is again ahead of the curve on this concept by eliminating crossovers entirely. Should his research prove fruitful I would love an invitation to listen because I relish the day I can dump my Linn electronics and buy from a manufacturer that doesn't insult me every step of the way. Until then however, I will continue my dance with the devil because I like listening to the music.

If any naysayers are coming to the Boise area send me an email and I'll show you a good time. Dinner is on me and if we get tired of listening we can always load up my drift boat and go fly fishing.

Regards,
Patrick

Yes, Patrick , this is once again seeming to get into a tussle between Digital Heads and Vinyl Junkies while poor old Formulaone doesn't get the answers he's looking for. (BTW- In case my previous post wasn't clear, yes, Formula, there may be a barely perceptable surface noise while playing an LP under the best conditions.)

I find a use for both LPs and CDs. For serious listening, my personal preference is LPs. Sure, sometimes even a new LP can be unlistenable but, on the whole, the medium is alot more sonically satisfying for me. For those who are passionate about CDs, it's good for you that you found something that you can be passionate about.

And, while high-end CDP manufacturers love to claim that their CDP "sounds more like analog", I'm still waiting on a turntable manufacturer to claim that their product sounds more like digital......

(Hey, at least I didn't post that last comment on the DIGITAL forum!! Hoo-eee!! That'd make the Hatfield's and McCoy's relationship look like kissin' cousins in comparison!!)

Regards

Jim

I thank you all for your responses.

I was 12 the last time I heard vinyl, which was played on a mass-market Pioneer table in conjunction with similar quality ancillaries. Juxtaposing my aural memory with the sound of the Clearaudio Master Reference table/Insider Gold cartridge/Walker phono stage ought to be a real revelation!

consider how science and industry deals with isolation and "noise". at a laboratory or precision machine shop much effort and expense is expended on these issues. nothing is left to chance.

reading the groove of a vinyl record is just another technical challenge that requires first isolation; and then precise reading. in a cost-no-object situation you would first have considerable mass, then some sort of cushion of isolation, then another cushion of isolation for every moving part. then the item to be examined would need to be firmly held for maximum resolution. the reading probe would need to be very compliant and yet controlled for proper measurement at the desired resolution.

whether you are cutting something, useing an electron microscope, or any other precision operation, any deviation from uncompromised solutions to these issues would compromise the result.

turntable designs exist that meet these standards. in these designs the so-called noise-floor of the vinyl format is revealed to be mostly an issue of compromised designs, not an inherent characteristic of the format.

when hitting price targets, turntable designers balance various compromises to offer the best performance results for their priorities. with any compromises there is noise introduced.

this is not voodo, it is science. there are certainly software noise issues that exist, but they are very minor compared to the turntable design contributions to noise. this assumes a comprehensive approach to vinyl care (handling, cleaning, etc.).

if you want quiet vinyl playback, you can have it.

i would also add that once the noise-floor is lowered, there is way more information that is revealed to exist in those grooves.