Teres vs VPI, SME, Origin Live, etc.

Raul, I have no aversion to auditioning a Final Tool, or any other turntable. I like to audition equipment, and can be pretty objective about it, regardless of what equipment that I currently own.

I'd audition a Final Tool in a heartbeat, as soon as I could find the opportunity. I don't feel threatened by any turntable, and if I liked it better than my Teres, I'd say so.

However, you might consider that there is a "Teres Fan Club" not just to promote the brand, but because these users really like the sonic performance for the money. Admittedly the prices have risen over the last couple of years, but I only paid just over $2k for my Teres. That was a bargain.

From a design perspective, the Final Tool has some interesting things going for it, but some things that I don't like from a design perspective too.
I like the "mass loaded unsuspended design and I like the separate motor unit, and the basic appearance is quite pleasing.

However, in my opinion, aluminum(damped or not) is a poor choice of materials for the platter, and also for the plinth and motor housing. Also, although I applaud their use of a "re-generator" for speed controlling the AC synchronous motor, I'm not generally in favor of AC synchronous motor systems on a turntable. The non-lubricated bearing seems interesting, but I'm a proponent of an oil-bath bearing for various reasons. Use of a felt mat, is an admission of poor platter resonance characteristics, and shows the manufacturer is aware of the problems of the use of aluminum in this application.

While nothing is perfect, and this Final Tool may be a very good sonic performer, there is reason to expect that the level of performance would reflect these inadequacies in the design. From a performance perspective, the massive precision oil-bath bearing used in the Teres would predict better results, as would the acrylic platter(admittedly not perfect, but better than aluminum), and the non-cogging DC motor with mylar tape drive is notably superior(borne out in testing) to the "string drive" system that has been obsoleted in the Teres line. The combination of string-drive with an AC motor can help with reducing the vibration transfer from the motor to the platter, but creates a "stretch-release, stretch-release" condition or "slip-catch, slip-catch" condition in conjuntion with a cogging AC synchronous motor. All AC motors cog. This affects speed stability, and is in no way comparable to a precision controlled non-cogging DC motor with a non-slip, non-stretch mylar belt configuration in the Teres. While wood may not be preferred by some as a plinth material, it is without question superior to aluminum, which is not even a good selection in the metal category for sonic performance. I understand this, because I work for a company which designs and builds metal products for audio vibration control use, and brass is so far and away superior to aluminum that it isn't even worth discussing aluminum in the same context.The movement toward the use of brass in the higher models of the Teres turntables shows that the designer understands the proper use of proper metals in audio designs.

Regarding the use of Cocobolo or Rosewood in the turntable for its resonance properties, Frank Schroeder seems to think that it works pretty well on his highly-regarded tonearms. And many others seem to agree. Wood does things differently than metals, while I generally also prefer metals, a good application of wood is better than a lesser application of metals.

The use of bronze/brass in the Final Tool bearing is a good use of materials there, and is in its favor for that part.

So, from a preliminary engineering viewpoint, there is no really good reason to suspect any superior performance from the Final Tool turntable, over the Teres designs, but there is good reason to suspect that the Teres design would show superior results over the Final Tool.

I would reserve final judgment, based on auditioning. But, from a design perspective, I wouldn't expect anything notably superior from that turntable. I will say that it looks like it could be a very good entry against many of the other brands that sell thru dealers(with markups) at that $2500 price point.

SirSpeedy,
Thanks for the idea of soldering all my connections. It would probably sound better, as Raul confirmed. This of course supports the concept that a single tonearm wire has a sonic advantage over a broken one. It seems we agree on that.

Of course it's up to each of us to decide where and how far to take this principle. Raul makes soldering seem like quite a hassle however, and I'm sure it is. I'll hold off for now, but thanks for the suggestion.

Sorry your friend didn't like the SST. I haven't tried it. I have read literature from a similar product and the theory behind it is a mixture of good and silly. Considering the obvious risks and the undeniable hassle of trying to remove it I'm 100% with you - holding off.

***
The sort of analysis Twl just performed for the Acoustic Signature Final Tool is similar to one I did - mentally - when a dealer asked me if I'd like to compare another table with my Teres. This other table lists for over $11K. But when I compared them "on paper" it appeared to have trouble even matching the qualities of my $4K model 265.

The performance is the thing of course. I passed on the audition but I spent a lot of hours with that other table when the dealer asked me and some friends to help set one up and break it in for a customer. Comparing tables in different systems is dangerous of course, but my friends and I all came away unanimously convinced that this $11K table is simply uncompetitive.

IOW, my theoretical comparison was proved correct by a hands-on evaluation: nothing about that table was superior, many things about it were demonstrably inferior.

Yes, I'm a "fan" of Teres. I'm a fan of any product that offers engineering, materials, construction and performance that exceed what's generally available for the price. The Teres models at least up to the 265 provide remarkable performance at their respective price points. Their component quality equals or betters tables selling for 2-3X the price. No one needs to apologize for appreciating genuine value. I will always be a fan of that.

Doug

Have any of you Teres owners done a/b comparisons with Galibier or Redpoint? I'm curious as to what your impressions may have been. I think it's intersting that they evolved out of a common approach and ended in significantly different material choices, but yet retain what appears to me as much of the same philosophy. All the talk of Aluminum vs. wood vs. Brass or combinations thereof just has me interested in what sonic differences I might expect when hearing a few specific tables. There seem to be many fans of each approach and please don't think I want a definitive kind of answer on which is better, but this thread just got me thinking it might be interesting to hear what people have to say about it.

Matt

In most turntables like Teres, Redpoint, Galibier, the materials chosen are the preferences of the designers/owners of the company. These choices are typically made by comparative listening to the TT, using the different things, and choosing what they like the sound of. All these TTs are good, and will vary a bit in sound, due to the variations that each company uses. They have all emerged from one starting point, The Teres Project, so they all have similar roots, and probably have some sonic similarities left, even after materials/design changes.

Regarding the materials chosen and the effects on the sound, it is difficult to determine exactly how a given material will sound, unless you also consider it in conjunction with the rest of the overall design. While I like brass as a material, it is not sufficient to just apply brass "willy nilly" at any location on the TT and expect better results. There must be a reason to use a material in the application and position for it to work out right.

For example, brass, when used in the proper formulation and shapes, can have excellent energy transfer properties. But, you have to have some place for the energy to come from, and someplace for the energy to go, for an energy transfer media to be of use. So, the TT must be engineered with these vibration transfer pathways in mind, or else the material will not function as desired. In the case of hardwood, this material is very good at dispersing energy thoughout its diversely-grained internal structure, and will also tend to transfer some of that energy along the longitudinal grain pattern. This application needs to be carefully considered when using wood in a TT.

Plastics work in a variety of ways, depending upon their formulations.

So, it's necessary to know what your materials can do, and how to apply them to the best effect in the application. There is no way to just say that "brass is better", or "wood is better", unless you can understand how it is being used for its purpose. In some cases, brass may be much worse than another material, if it is not used correctly. Generally, a knowledgeable person can tell by just looking at the way the pieces of a product are constructed and assembled, as to which materials would be productive in the application. In many cases, the product could benefit(or get worse) by changing the shapes and assembly techniques of certain parts, when they use a different material.

It depends on what the designer is trying to achieve with his design. The better he knows what he's doing, the better the result will be. He will use the proper materials and the proper geometries, and the proper assembly methods for his design to be correctly realized.

I didn't really mean to sound like I was coming down so hard on the Final Tool turntable design. I'm sure it is a good sounding turntable.

I simply was trying to point out some reasons of why I like one design over another.

I would jump at the chance to audition one, and I'm sure I would enjoy it. It does have some things that I like in a turntable design.