battling the pops and clicks

As a newbie getting into vinyl (just picked up a Rega P5 and a Dyna 20XH), I think that all the posting on this site and AA are very misleading regarding how "dead-quiet" everyone's vinyl is after using their RCMs (I also have a VPI 16.5) and special cleaning sauce.

Many posters set up the expectation for us newbies that all vinyl can sound as quiet as a CD, if only we spent enough $ on a rig and time cleaning. Maybe these posters have achieved great results buying brand new 200 gram vinyl sourced from recently discovered WW2 caves beneath Japan, stored and played in a semiconductor manufacturer's clean room, with a stylus cut from the Hope Diamond, ....

I buy and play alot of used vinyl. This stuff will never be dead quiet and I accept that. Let's be real. We're taking a plastic disc, jamming the hardest substance in the universe through a groove as wide as a hair, and not expecting environmental "contaminants" like dust, dirt, sweat, clothing fibers, etc. not to build up or in the case of used vinyl all those scuffs and surface scratches not to be audible? I doubt it.

I prefer the sound of vinyl to CD. But let's call it like it is and live with the fact vinyl and CD/digital have inherent advantages and disadvantages.

Every minute I spend cleaning records with that loud as hell vacuum is one less minute I have to listen music.

And that is the real tradeoff.

Dsockel makes a very valid point about cleaning records with the exception of the quiet operation of Loricraft machines. Also, newbies often have their price point set too low to enjoy a quieter presentation. Anyone that doesn't believe vinyl playback can be extremely quiet hasn't listened to a quality linear tracking tonearm hung with a great cartridge. I tire of explaining this so let me move on to the more common pivot arms. Many turntables, arms, cartridges (previous items amplify through mechancical shortcomings) and even phono stages actually magnify these noises electronically based on my experience. With a properly adjusted VTA the surface noise associated with generic vinyl seems outside the room and in my case isn't as loud as my homes ambient noise level. I've spent over 40 years collecting vinyl during which time I've always had a turntable where the tonearm and cartridges are bought separately. I've been able to replace defective software with better ones so I rarely am playing a record with scratches. I sometimes scratch my head when reading replies to this kind of question. Man, Raul has more stuff than you can shake a stick at. I'm surprised that he is accepting of anything more than a very occassional click or pop of reduced volume. Of course, among his many cartridges he doesn't own one by my manufacturer of choice which is the quietest in the groove I've ever heard as well as the most pleasing presentation I've yet to experience except moving up the food chain in the ZYX lineup, and he states that he doesn't like them too! Then again Raul doesn't like tubes. I'm sure however that because there is more than one way to skin a cat his system sounds marvelous and I'm not offering any criticism against him. We make our choices for ourselves and not others. I guess that if my music room were soundproof I would actually hear more noise since certainly with a pivot arm it will not be as dead quiet as CD's. In the real world of heating, air conditioning, cooking and other people living with you not to mention traffic, lawn mowing from neighbors and such there is little and infrequent noise differences between CD's and my analog front end, lead in and out grooves excepting. Synergy with every aspect of the analog front end cannot be over emphasized at all. Stand, table, arm, cartridge, mat, clamp, cables, lighting, dediciated lines, phono stage and cleaning of records and cartridge must work in harmony. I've always advised newbies to spend around $2500 used for long term happiness and have been raked over the coals for doing so. I still stand behind this as the sweet spot for price/preformance.

I have once wondered that if we were to introduce "snaps, crackles and pops" to a CD would we prefer the "bettersounding" CD to a pristine CD? Oh, and also add the interchannel phase error prevelant on vinyl that is so attractive to vinylphiles, making it sound "so much more real".
I love my vinyl music, but I do not think that, except for some extremely well done recordings, vinyl is superior to digital - certainly not from a noise point of view.

Bob P.

Ejlif, a few ideas...

Try RRL solutions instead of DD. With RRL a distilled water rinse is unnecessary and in fact counterproductive. RRL is actually purer than most distilled water, and it never foams or leaves any residue. On my Loricraft RRL gets about 70% of the records clean enough so that no further wet cleaning is necessary.

For the stubborn 30%, I try Buggtussel's Vinyl-zyme or Paul Frumkin's AIVS. Enzymes will remove stuff that surfactant-based cleaners can't.

Still, vinyl is rarely perfect. Of our 3,000+ LPs only a minority is "totally" quiet. But as Raul said, once the number of extraneous noises is reduced to just a few per side you learn to listen through them. And yes, it is possible to get the noise down to that level.

I agree with all that Lugnut said regarding better equipment. Loricrafts and Keith Monks clean better than VPIs. Better tables are quieter. Better arms and arm wire are quieter. Better phono stages are much quieter. Better cartridges are quieter and I second his vote for ZYX, which are the quietest I've heard and also the most neutral and natural.

Visitors who hear our system with a CD/SACD/DVDA (rare unless they ask) are more or less impressed, depending on what other systems they've heard. When we switch to vinyl they are invariably overwhelmed. No one has ever asked us to lift the tonearm and go back to digital. When I ask if they'd like to hear another format comparison the answer is predictable, "Shut up and play another record!" The only visitors who aren't genuinely shocked have top quality vinyl setups of their own.

If done well, vinyl can provide an enthralling musical experience that no digital source can match at any price. A good vinyl rig will stomp an Ayre. It will stomp a dcs. It will stomp a Meitner. It will even stomp my Denon. ;-) Will it cost more money than you've spent to get there? Yes. Does it take significant effort and constant TLC? Absolutely. Is it worth all that? Only you can decide.

If you live near someone with a topnotch rig it would be worth a visit. Hearing what's possible, and what it costs in dollars and time, might help you decide whether to pursue this nuttiness or go back to the remote control.

Regards,
Doug

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I am with Doug and Bob, if you invest some money and time, you can find yourself in an amazing place.

My previous tt was a Rega 9/1000 and a Dynavector XX-2. It was pretty damn quiet. Very few pops and ticks.

My new main rig is a used Amazon 1, used Schroeder 1 and an zyx uni.

I do not do a great job of cleaning my records and tire of the ordeal of using my Moth machine (I do plan to get a Loricraft soon, even thogh I wear ear protection.

Nevertheless, the pops and ticks are rare and the music truly magical. The scary thing, however, is the black, black silence between tracks and quiet passages. At night, when the ambiant noise is down, the quiet between tracks is actually breathtaking. You can sometimes hear the stylus gently scaping (I assume thats what it is) the side of the groove between tracks, then the next song starts and you realize that you were hearing a sound so quiet and so far back in the background that the first note, no matter how soft, completly wipes out that gentle sound. Then you are off again on a trip.

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