How to properly set VTF??



Hello there.

Just wondering which is the proper "placement" of the gauge to set the VTF for a cartridge. I use a digital gauge and normally fine tune by ear.

Method #1
Place VTF gauge directly on the turntable playing surface.

OR

Method #2
Place VTF gauge "outside" of the playing surface beyond the records edge.

I set the VTF at the recommended 1.96g using method #1. I then tried the #2 placement and the measurement read 2.14g for a difference of 0.18g

The only explanation I can think of that attributed to the weight difference is the anti-skate setting. On my arm (Tri-Planar) the anti-skate kicks in when the cartridge is on a playing surface, outside the playing surface the anti-skate is very minimal.

Which method do you think is best or is it arm dependent?

Cheers!
dogpile
Sorry Bob,tried that,and don't agree(respectfully).It's clearly easy to hear the 1/100 gm differences in the set-ups that I'm privy to.The other pre changes you mention,don't impact the fact that the arm/cartridge "ZONE" is extremely important,based on what I've learned.Yet I'm NOT preaching anything to be set in stone.This is simply my own,and friends',observations.

As to the guage situation,here's my take--I've owned the Shure(totally unacceptable).The digital Cartridge Man guage was a pain to use properly,in that it needed a 24 hr charge,and was supposedly accurate for about 1/2 hr.Unacceptable for checking something out,on a whim,which I do often as I get new discs.Sometimes a new LP opens up a new door to checking certain parameters,at least to me,and I hated having to re-charge just to check this.My own set-up consists of a sort of "averaging" to a wide variety of LP's,in my collection.Wish I owned the LEGENDARY Air Tangent, remote/digital read out of vta,arm.I do think that this is the arm in GOD's system!

I bought the quite nice Digital One stylus force guage,from "Audio Parts",a year ago.Yet my pal got the same one,and it is .13 off from Sid's Winds guage(which I know to be accurate.He's had it checked).I never compared my Digi One to my friend's,but since his zero'd out to the supplied weight,as does mine,I see no reason mine is any different.

Also,since we've NEVER gotten such superb performance from my friend Ed's system(though he puts the emphasis on a recent shift from IC-70 to Venustas phono link),and the Winds was used EXTENSIVELY during the arm cable comparisons,and I was present,and active in the comparison(I was FANATICAL about the differences between 1.83/1.84/1.85/1.86/1.87)settings,all audible,as well as hyper fine tuning vta,and fluid during a 12 hr period,here.So my take,as well as Sid, was the fine increments of the "accurate to a fairthywell" Winds seemed to offer greater credibility than the actual cable differences.Hence,though I originally was interested in possibly changing to the Venustas,I'm now reasonably convinced that the Winds is the better investment,for me.

BTW-Dan--You can get about 100 bucks off on this guage,if you time it right.Like spring/summer!In my case I'm going in with a few other lunatics(like me),so I hope to get a fair market price.

Though any really good input on the NEW guage being marketed on the for sale area of Audiogon,would have the potential of putting the "Kibash" on a Winds purchase.It looks that good!I'll bet it's too good to be true,though!!Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
One final thought.Any feedback is always welcome!Though it is very good to ultimately set by ear,and I do this alot during long listening sessions,isn't it a good idea to finalize our efforts by checking the downforce,after all is tuned?This way (even with some inevitable drift)we can zero in on ultimate parameters quickly.To me,if there is always going to be some slight drift,then it's a matter of easily resetting with a good guage.If this is NOT plausible,then I think I may have to give my CD player more consideration,as I'm not really into tweaking as much as many of you may think.Just food for thought!


Dear friends: For any newcomer to analog and after read all those ( very interesting ) posts about VTF/AS/0.001/VTA issue any one of them would withdraw before to star on analog: very complicated.

Why don't just enjoy the music?

This VTF/VTA/etc/etc can't be perfect or near it. There are many parameters that preclude that:

- we need to know the right load impedance where the cartridge has flat frequency.

- we need to know the right VTF where the coils are precise centered.

- we need to know the right VTA where the frequency is flat and of course with the right VTF and Azimuth.

- what we " meausure/hear " today, tomorrow could be different for the same setup because: suspension changes ( for the use ), stylus wear, record wear, tube wear, etc, etc.

- every record is different and is cutted different and with different thickness.

- all records are concave, so the VTF/VTA change along rhe record ( some of you setup the VTF/VTA-SRA every single record, but this is not enough you have to change in every single track!!! ).

- our ear perception changes every single day: different mood, auditive loss, etc, etc.

- if today we do our analog setup with two other friends in the audio room and tomorrow we do the same with out any of them, the sound reproduction that we hear will be different because we have two less " audio traps " in the audio room.

- etc

- etc!!!!!!!!!

All of you are experienced audio people why don't do an " average " setup and use all the remaining time enjoying the music?

Don't be nuts, you are trying to be perfect on an imperfect medium: you can't have success.

Now, we have severe frequency deviations all over the audio system, at least: 1-2 db on cartridges, 1-2 db on phono stages, 5-10 db on tubes and SUTs, 5-10 db on speaker/room, 5-10 db on tube amplifiers, 1 db on SS amplifiers, 5-10 db on our ears, etc, etc.
If we want a better music/sound quality reproduction ( because is what I think we all wanted ) we have to " touch " every single link on the audio chain to a minimum frequency deviations, then the VTF/VTA-SRA issue means something to be nuts, not before.

wELL, AS i TOLD YOU: WHY DON'T JUST ENJOY THE MUSIC?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Raul, I think that is what I have been trying to say - set the VTF (0.1g accuracy is enough) at any position on the record and then enjoy the music after doing a further adjustment by ear.
Your description of all of the other parameters that might affect the listening experience is also a reason not to go vinyl.
With respect, Bob P.
Hi Raul, you and Bob are right, of course. We should all just relax and enjoy. However, some of us are not new to analog and want to investigate, experiment with this stuff. Far and away the music is the most important thing. If some of us do find a method of setting one of the parameters of a given piece of equipment that yields a better or more consistent result it will have been worth it. Much like experimenting with different types and levels of dampening fluid on some arms.

Anyway, it is all meant to be in taken in good spirits.

Enjoy!