Can you imagine a world without vinyl?

Albertporter...That depends on the definition of "better".

Johnnantais...You are quite correct that there is great potential for improvement of vinyl-based audio. I know that, because I had DBX records and playback electronics, and I found that all the well known problems of vinyl were drastically reduced by this system. Audiophiles missed the boat on this one, although stupid marketing by DBX played a role. If I had to describe DBX records in a nutshell, I would say that it amounts to dynamic equalization to replace the RIAA curve.

Newbee gets right what Johnnantais misses in my opinion: It's typically the rabid vinylphiles who exagerate the shortcomings of CDs vs. what average digital-friendly audiophiles usually state about the shortcomings of vinyl.

Both formats have their limitations and strengths, but these days the most overheated claims about the inferiority of the other format are promulgated by the vinyl side. So too are most of the rationalizations, omissions, or dismissals of problems inherent in their own pet format also to be found on the vinyl side, as Johnnantais' comments above illustrate -- noise, quite real, is hardly the only such problem with records -- or his and Stevecham's cliched but meaning-free quips about computers and ones and zeroes. (The fact is that the major problems audible with CD sound are analog in origin: jitter- and filter-related primarily. But the basic theory of digital conversion is well-proven, and the remaining practical difficulties are known and addressable.) On the digital side at least work continues to be done in trying to establish higher-rez consumer protocols to supercede Red Book, which implies in part a more honest appraisal of the CD's sonic shortcomings, among other more marketable factors, and that evolution will be ongoing as the physical silver disk increasingly becomes a thing of the past.

And don't for a second try to tell me that the high end industry marketing to audiophiles what is essentially being treated as a 'new' format from a sales standpoint doesn't both drive and feed off much of the vinyl propaganda, same as when CD was first promoted to the general public, only much more expensively (it's not called the high end for no reason after all). Not since then has the high end seen such a bonanza of audiophiles lining up to be convinced once more that they must re-buy their music in a more costly audiophile format yet again, plus all the new gear to play it on. Just witness today's profusion of me-too turntables -- talk about cynical. But that's fine -- I don't have a problem with what is still a cottage industry in the larger scheme of things reaping the benefits of rich boys wanting to play with new toys; that's what the high end is all about.

Let's just not get carried away from reality by all the rhetoric. No matter how much you want to expend on their playback, and no matter how much we might enjoy or fetishize them, records cannot faithfully transmit the sound of a mastertape. Digital has that possibility, as well as more relative practical advantages than you can shake a tonearm at.

Albertporter...That depends on the definition of "better".

Big opinions as always from Eldartford. This has become a multi thread, multi year experience with Dart seeking out LP forums to place his jabs.

Those that have both formats at state of the art agree LP is better, but that doesn't stop Eldartford (who never got it right) from remaining steadfast to his position.

I get really tired of the smart ass attitude and smug assertions, especially from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

I guess I need to start going to every forum on digital and abuse everyone about their music instead of interjecting comments that digital has made headway.

Dear Richard: +++++ " Can you imagine a world without vinyl? " +++++

Yes, I can imagine what I can't imagine is a world without MUSIC ( somebody posted about ).

50K records in 45 years?, that's mean that for 45 years you buy at least 3 records each single day over those 45 years!!!!!!!. You are a extremely music/record collector. Congratulations!!!!!! I own only 6K but normally I'm around 200-300 ( maybe less ) to hearing.

Now, it is obvious ( like other of you posted ) that we need a better medium/way of music home reproduction for the future recordings. I agree that for what are already recorded the LP is the best medium/way till today and I think that the LP reproduction audio items ( that we know/using ) most be improved ( because it can ), we are losting yet " music " from/in our audio systems, there is ( fortunately ) a " road " to improvements in the way of sound reproduction ( like somebody posted ) with better future designs ( I hope that. ): cartridges/tonearms/TT's/Phonolinepreamps/amplifiers/speakers/etc/etc.

Let me tell you these: over the last 30 years I don't know any single tonearm design ( and there are several very good today designs out there ) that could beat " vintage " tonearms designs like Micro Seiki MAX 282, Technics EPA 100MK2, Audiocraft AC3300, Lustre GST 801, SAEC, SME, etc, etc. In the same way we have very good cartridges new designs, but a real whole improvement over some " vintage " cartridges?, I can tell you, too, that ( unfortunately ) these new designs are not whole better than the older ( some cartridge manufacturers have better cartridges today but are better because their old designs were not good enough. ): I can't think/know any single today cartridge that could beat ( whole ) the Fidelity Researh MC702 or the Technics U205CMK4 ( MM ) or the Goldbug Brier or the Audio Technica ATML 180OCC or Micro Acoustics MA630 or Fulton HP or many others.
In the same way are the TT's, example: Micro Seiki, not only the top of the line SZ-1TVS+SZ-1M but the SX or RX series: IMHO I don't know any today TT ( and I don't hear all yet ) that really beats the Micro Seiki stuff.

Today, we all are paying " dream money " for tonearms/cartridges and TT's that give us/return a very small real " satisfaction " for what we invest on it and certainly almost all can't give us/return a real whole improvement over the very old " vintage " gear. Please, if you don't believe in what I'm saying: you can buy ( today ) on e-bay a MM cartridge ( new. ) like the Empire EDR.9 for less than HUNDRED DOLLARS ( they are on special!!: two cartridges for 135.00 dollars !!!!!) give 50 hours of play and then make a serious " hearing " from it, you can't believe how a MM cartridge for that " absurd " price could perform that nice!!!!! and at almost the very same level of any of those 3-5K new cartridge designs.

We have to ask/push/beg to the " new " TT/cartridge/tonearm very good designers to improve ( a real/big improvement ) their today designs. I think that we have to let to applaud with so paramount enthusiasm those every day newcomers designs till they be a real/whole quality sound reproduction improvement design, not only different but whole better.

In less proportion, we have to ask/push/beg to all the very good electronics and speaker designers. Why do you think that José and I work hard for many years to design/build our Essential 3150 phonolinepreamp? and why do you think that we are on the amplifier and tonearm design?: because we really think that we need a serious improvement in the quality sound reproduction of what we have and of what it is out there, we are trying it and we hope we could achieve that in the near future.

If we take a look in the last years the prices on the audio items go really fast ( higher ) against the quality improvements: the audio item price wins the " race " ( right now ), it is fair that we ( all customers ) ask for better audio item quality performance.

Last but don't less important is that the whole recording process could " suffer/change " for the better with new recording approaches: miking/mastering/edition/recording machines/cables/consoles/mixers/recording enginnering/producers/etc/etc. This subject is critical because is the SOURCE. I think that the recording manufacturers can do it but they are not interested on it, unfortunately.

Waiting for a better future!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.