tubes and analog


I just "upgraded" from a Mac SS integrated to a Prima luna dialogue 2 tube amp. The reason that I changed amps was that i assumed that the tube amp would be a better match for my Zu Druid speakers. The amp change was a big improvment for listening through my CDP....but not so when listening to my Rega P9. I had to switch to my spare SS phono stage (Graham slee) to get it to sound right. I was using a tube phono (AES) with my Mac. In Short, my tube amp with SS phono stage is not really an upgrade from my Mac with Tube phono stage. My question is.....should i consider a further upgrade to a better tube phono pre or is it simply that a change from SS to Tube amp is more "pronounced" in digital playback?
csmithbarc
I'm friends with a physicist named Earl Geddes who specializes in acoustics and psychoacoustics, has authored books and holds patents in the field, and who not long ago presented several papers to the Audio Engineering Society on the subject of distortion perception. Earl is NOT a tube-o-phile.

Earl's research confirmed that the ear is very sensitive to low levels of high order harmonic distortion (I don't recall whether he singled out odd-order distortion or not), but very tolerant of high levels of second harmonic distortion. He also found that the ear is very sensitive to a rise in distortion at very very low power levels.

After he had completed the study, Earl made this remark to me (as close as I can remember): "Duke, now I see why you and your friends like tubes so much". He also told me that his study indicates a negative correlation between THD and listener preference - in other words, listeners were more likely to prefer the device with the higher total harmonic distortion measurement! The reason is, the THD measurement does not correlate well at all with distortion perception. THE INDUSTRY IS MEASURING THE WRONG THINGS.

Earl Geddes and Lydia Lee have proposed a new distortion metric that correlates very well with subjective listening tests, but it has not been embraced by the industry.

Anyway, my point is that in general solid state devices have lower measured distortion, but the distortion characteristic of tube devices is more in harmony with the way our ears work.

Finally, as an Atma-Sphere dealer, I have never had a customer's Atma-Sphere amp or preamp "blow up". Tube failure is not an amp blowing up, and Ralph's amps are designed so that tube failure does not damage the amp at all. In several thousand hours of listening, I have had one case of output tube failure and one case of input tube failure in an Atma-Sphere amp, both of which were easily remedied by replacing the tubes with no damage to anything. Ralph has never had a case of a customer's amp "blowing up", so I think Raul overstated his experience a bit.

Duke
Dear Audiokinesis: The problem was " more " than a simple single tube: first one tube, few minutes latter a second one and finally damage the speaker.

Atmasphere is right the amp don't suffer a serious damage, but I'm talking of a whole sale tube technology problems when used on audio:

+++++ " You certainly know every single tube technology limitations: very high output impedance, tubes are a noisy device " per nature ", tubes designs have higher distortions level than SS or hybrids one, tubes have heavy problems to reproduce accurately both frequency extremes specially the low bass where ( beteen other things ) does not have control over the woofers like the SS topology, tubes are untrusty: time to time ( very short time ) blow-up, tubes are not performance consistent: almost every single day sound different ( many people don't take in count because every day are in touch with their systems ). Jh you know that we can go on speaking about but this is not the subject: you and me know that there is nothing perfect in tubes or SS electronics.

Jh, the subject is that the " very old myths " about SS designs, fortunately, dissapear. Today we have very good SS designs as we can find good tube designs. The best of all is that today the customers have several choices that in the past don't. " +++++

and I'm talking of those tube problems only because Mr. Atmasphere " thinks " that he lives in an " island " where only exist TUBES and where the other technologies are not " up to the task ".

This is totally untrue there are hybrid and SS designs ( tube designs too ) that not only are very good designs but that outperforms the Atmasphere gear.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
This has become shameful. I'm glad Hagtech pulled out just in time.

Behave yourselves.

***
Amen, brothers Ralph, Jim, Duke ...

THE INDUSTRY IS MEASURING THE WRONG THINGS.

THD is a meaningless number. The ear is remarkably sensitive to odd-order harmonics - responding rather pleasantly to even harmonics - especially 2nd order.

Keep in mind that 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. show up as very low numbers, but too much of these small numbers will chase you out of the room.

Some of these odd-order 'nasties' in minute proportions can be perceived as 'sparkle' or low-level detail - much like the trap people fall into when they mistakenly interpret speakers with elevated upper midrange / low-treble as having detail and pace.

This recognition of 'sparkle' and 'resolution' usually comes a few months before you find their latest prized piece of gear for sale on Audiogon.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Dear Raul,

When you wrote:
and I'm talking of those tube problems only because Mr. Atmasphere " thinks " that he lives in an " island " where only exist TUBES and where the other technologies are not " up to the task ".

Tube problems my dear Raul are a consequence of bad design and not the nature of tubes.

As far as reliability is concerned, apart from a certain manufacturer in Ralph's home state (hint: it's not Atmasphere, but does begin with the letter "A"), all of my tube gear has been more reliable than my s-s gear.

You may argue about sonics, but tubes have it all over s-s in terms of simplicity, reliability, field serviceability, and immunity from voltage spikes.

As you know all too well, we are all in this business because we love it. Ralph, Jim, you and I don't make design decisions based on the prompting of our corporate accountants, but rather our chosen path is fueled by our passions.

You endorse your design because you love it - as do Ralph, Jim, and I.

Now, I won't deny that some behavior becomes pathological over time, but I contend that we'd be nuts to be in this business if we didn't love it. There are easier ways to pay the mortgage.

We have all in our own way landed on our own island paradise, and I consider it disingenuous of you to single Ralph (Atmasphere) out in this discussion.

As has been pointed out on more than one occasion, the number of companies manufacturing tube gear is growing and not shrinking. This is quite amazing when you take into consideration the marketing blitz from the large corporations.

The marketplace is speaking. Is the marketplace mad?

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier