Reference level playback


Hello to all, I have a theory to present that I feel is never fully addressed, it is in regard to the volume level that we listen at. This is in respect to vinyl only as I have no experience with CDs, I do not own a CD player and the one in my car is broken! That and the fact that I own about 10 CDs makes it impossible to have any regarded opinion in this matter.
I have seen in the past postings regarding listening levels, such as overall playback levels and playback levels for individual LPs. The two being distinguishable but not inseperatable. Recently someone said that it is a life time endeavor to find the correct playback levels as it changes from system to system, room to room and LP to LP. Also it has been posted that even crossover levels (and settings) should be used as freely as volume control settings. I disagree.
My experience has show that systems should be set at a reference level of 83db @ 1000hz and all LPs should be played back at this reference level. Set It and Forget It, is my motto.

I listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting. I let the music and the engineer/producer/pressing dictate the playback level, and screw things up as they see fit! If you do not change the gain setting then you hear exactly what is on the record for evey record every time. I never change the volume control setting, it is set at 83db at 1000hz (plus or minus due to variations in my settings, room and references which does perhaps give you some leeway in any system, and may even be necessary). Some quiet non-bass heavy music plays at around mid 80s. Good rock plays at around the high 80s to low 90s. Music with big bass levels (orchestral and loud rock) plays around low to mid 90s with peaks to 100+. Emerson Lake and Palmers song Lucky Man hits 112db. Of course every record is completely different and that's the thrill and the reason. This is without changing the volume control setting. Want to listen to "quiet" music, put on some quiet music which was recorded appropriatly. Want some big bass Orb, well, it should play loudly. Want to hear the Monkees on Colegems, listen to it in your car.
I also do this for a number of other reasons:
1) All recordings now have the same vinyl recorded background noise, pops and clicks, noisy or quiet vinyl etc.. You hear each recording, pressing and condition of the LP for what it is. Turning down the volume on a noisy record does not make the record more quiet. Turning down the volume on a recording that was recorded too loudly does not help the sonics of this LP. Turning up the volume does not make a record more dynamic and it can only add more noise.
2) Bass levels are maintained through the Fletcher-Munson curve. Using the volume control has a huge effect on this. It makes it more difficult to balance bass levels when you are altering the Fletcher Munson curve. It is impossible to intergrate a sub when freq perception is changing due to overall gain settings for every recording or when listening at different levels according to your mood.
3) All recording engineers and producers have the same amount of dynamics available to themselves, did they make a dynamic, correct volume recording for the music that is recorded? I.e.: did they record an appropriately quiet section or style of music at an appropriate volume or did they compress the hell out of it and make a string quartet the same volume as a rock band? Its up to them to get this correct, not me. Lowering the volume does not help this LP. Is an Lp recorded too quietly and you want to hear it "rock out"? Increasing the volume does not help this if dynamics and overall gain is missing, plus "turning it up increases the noise levels in your system, and noises such as rumble and transient noise. This does not help this LP. How can you say record 1 is a good, quiet recording when played back at a lower gain setting comparing it to either itself or record 2 when played at a much higher setting? Did the pressing use good quiet vinyl? Is the pressing free of rumble and distortion? Changing gain setting dose not help any defiencies, they do not go away because you changed the volume level. Lets face it there are a lot of poor recordings, don't we really want to know which are good and which are bad? This is the way to find them.
4) If you "limit" yourself to one gain setting you will find that it is easier to set crossover settings, speaker placement and sub to main settings. You do this by getting the most out of your settings, not by pumping up or decreasing as is seen fit for that recording. again this shows the recording for what it is.
5) All records are played repeatadly at the same level so they always sound the same. From individual records played at different levels which would mess with the F-M curve and room interactions to all LPs which give some a more quiet background if played at a lower level to others where they become noisy cranked to 10!
6) Its an easily obtainable goal, who can't play at 83db at 1000hz? Therefore all of the other freq will be the same, you then only need your subs to be able to play 50hz and 20hz at 83db. Dont forget the required 20db dynamics! Why buy oversized amps and more gain than you need when all you are trying to do is get 83db at all freq?
7) We would all be listening at this level to make it easier to asses each others system at the same volume level.
8) This is the level that a good recording engineer should strive for. It gives him a natural level 83db with the ability to utilise 20db+ dynamics.
9) You only have to buy the size amp you need.
10) You only need things to be so quiet, is your system quiet at this level? Who cares if it is noisy turned up to 10, you are not listening there anyway.
11) If listening to an LP and the turntable has resonances or rumble or the amp has a low freq aberration changing the reference playback level will alter this underlying feel, sound, noise and this can not be correct-to evaluate at diff levels. This also pertains to number 1, regarding LP noise levels, whether condition or anomalies such as LP recorded hum or vinyl rumble.

In summary there are two main reasons for this and the others come along for the ride. For your system, you only have to obtain a "flat" freq response from 20-20K @ 83db plus the ability for dynamics, a not so easily obtainable goal as it may first appear but at least a direction to go. This does not mean there is there is no "fiddling to be done". If your system is not capable of this setting tune your system to a more easily obtainable level such as 80db or 77db or less and get as full range as possible within your systems capability.
Secondly no record has an advantage due to increased or decreased volume setting, you hear the record for what it is, which is one of my main goals in listening.
I am not the only one to address this issue as you can research this on the net. I feel that that this is an important issue which is rarely ever discussed.
Bob
acoustat6
Bob, the last thing I wanted to do was start a pissing contest. But, you have a theory. You want folks to take it and yourself seriously. I asked, what I thought were pertinent questions. I think of these as threshold questions not as the foundation for winning a pissing contest. If what you were originally presenting was merely some speculation based on casual retrospection on your audio experience and you were looking for support I can understand your interpertation of my post.

FWIW, I'm glad you don't take me seriously - we think alike. I think my opinions are for the most part irrelevant! Feel free to ignore them. :-)
Hi Newbee, my thoughts are just that sometimes, mine. And here is the difficult part with music, that when one reveals themself as an artist, a participant, an enthusiast one opens their soul which can be revealing and perhaps a bit scarey. I most definatly do want to be taken seriously. This is not speculation or casual thought in a bored moment. I have thought about this and practiced this for sometime now. It may or may not work for you, as anything in life, including audio. What I will try to explain, and please give me some time and patience here, is that this works for me and I believe (disclamer, IMHO) should work for others. As tubes, SS, electrostats, cables etc work for some but not for everyone, why is this? I have some theories on this but... I will try to be more serious in my thoughts.
I will get back to you on your questions ASAP

Bob
Although your method wouldn't work for me because only 20% of my listening is serious, I'm watching this thread with interest. Maybe I'll learn something.
If you are a nurse then you have what is known as poor insight technically. The behavior you describe is absolutely obssesive and if you can only listen that way it is a compulsion. I say this with some degree of confidence My wife and I are seasoned MDs and she just so happens to be the Chair of a Psych Dept. I can say only this -after 14 years of her describing various cases every night no names all HIPPA o.K. and that I myself was good in Psychiatry got Honors etc blew the boards through the roof etc. - typical MD narcisiscm.
In any event why do you deny it was a long winded aguement vetting a very clear statement repeatedly. I think it was an arguement for that method as such a diatribe.
Please don't impose more insanity of ridgid inflexible behavior as the single and only correct way. Anyone who deviates from this single correct manner is not a person who appreciates music as audiophile . That is a diatribe.
Nothing wrong with having a point of view. However the degree and extent of a fixed pattern of behavior speaks volumes.
There is help-
Hello, Hi Newbee, Timrhu. What I think we are dealing with first off is energy, there is only so much energy available in the our LPs grooves. It is to our benifit to have that energy available to us as much as possible at all times. Now the idea is to transform that energy and control it. For all of our LPs equally.

"We" all seem to think that records are dynamically challanged. How can that be if we need to adjust our overall gain within even a single cut, no less different LPs? If I have gain enough to produce 110db from one Lp but others play at 80db at the same gain setting is that not alot of dynamics possible that is only limited by the LP we choose to put on? And by what the producer put on the LP?

When the gain level is set at a certain level the electrical energy is there to convert our mechanical energy into music with macro and micro dynamics. We need to have a certain amt of electrical energy available to us at any moment for every LP. Without distortion and whithout noise.

But it must be controlled. It must be controlled at the speakers, at the amp, at the preamp stage, the interface IE phono, cartridge, tonearm, table. And it must also be controlled in the room with its interactions.

Now we dont ever want to overdrive any of our equipment and want "perfect" equipment. This means there is a point where things fall apart from an electrical standpoint and also from a mechanical standpoint.

My "idea" is to get the most out of my system. Why did I have such a hard time in the past? Like most I would fiddle with the volume control. Up and down looking for that correct point for that LP. I always found it limiting. If I turned it up I may have used all of my dynamics, my room overloaded, my speakers distorted, If I turned it down micro detail dissapeared, and I lost the ability for upward dynamics because my electrical and mechanical power was no longer available.

Now this is the way that I tuned my system. I wanted enough dynamics available to me at all times for every LP since we "know" LPs are dynamically limited. I set my volume contol to a comfortable volume. Listen to LPs, what is "correct" what is "wrong" with this setting? Did I have a mid bass bloat? Perhaps, now this would limit me till I could find the problem, was it the crossoverpoint? Did moving the sub help? Or was it something else? I knew I could not go on till I got this correct because it affects every LP. Now assume this corrected, I said to myself now I can turn it up but now there was perhaps a high freq beaming, move the chair adjust the toe in of speakers, fix first reflection point whatever it takes. Perhaps it was a problem with rumble in the table we know that we dont want to listen to that so why go past my gain setting when now that rumble will be there and exacerbated by doing this? You have to fix this and on and on. Doing this gave me the greatest micro and macro dynamic range, not just upward but also to the noise floor. I will have to refine this thought as while even to me this seems simplistic and obvious, is it? The main thing is listen to all of your LPs at the same level and take time doing this. If you listen at lower levels do not make any adjustments while listening there.

But what I am really trying to do here is to never excede the sytem capabilities and room interaction while still maintaing maximum dynamics within your systems capabilities. The thing is there is no LP out there that should overload your system or room. No LP that is cut too low. If your system is not able to handle the dynamics of any Lp there must be something wrong somewhere. If the bass is correct on this LP but the high freq are not adj/tune the high freq. If the bass sounds bloated or slow correct it or realise that is the way the LP sounds.
If any LP is so far off, do we want to adjust our system for this? No. There is a certain correctness, if you will, and it has little to do with the overall volume. I would put certain records aside to reexamine later and have found that they were neither "too loud or too soft" but due to my system settings they appeared that way. Also we must understand that some records are to be played loud or soft, New Age Steppers (dub music) will play loudly, spoken word will play naturally. Of course some producers/artists got this more correct than others, but dont throw the baby out with the bath water. A LP is what it is, listen to it and find the limitations that are obscuring details or that are inherent in that recording. Noise is another factor pops clicks, inherent noise or rumble in a particular LP, this will not change now from LP to LP and with the volume set correctly should minimise this problem, though big pops will still be present and with the dynamics in my system be scarey. But I for one am most certainly not adjusting my system to a noisy LP.

Now when I did this with my system, I achieved a naturalness and correct overall volume with all LPs. NO one LP has an advantage due to "equalising" with the volume control. You hear each LP for what it really is. That is one of my audiophile goals.

Hey Mechams, should you really be diagnosing people over the internet? Are we not here as a discussion forum? Have I offended you? And please keep your wife out of this, if she has something to say to me let her do the "talking"
Bob