Denon DL 103 vs DL 103R

In case you are confused, VTF for the Shure M97xE should be set for 1.25 grams. Cartridge weight is 6.6 grams.

Right, sorry if that wasn't clear. As stated by Pryso, the M97xe weighs about 6 grams, with effective tracking force recommended (in the package anyway) at 1.25 - 2.0g with the brush down. I'd been running it a little heavy at about 2.75g with the brush down. I've borrowed a scale from a fellow A-Goner a couple of times to test this, as well as a setup disk for proper angle. I did the VTA visually. The problem I have with the counterweight is that in order to get the tracking force down below 2g as recommended, I have to really turn the counterweight out pretty far to the point where its hitting the cover when the needle hits the dead wax. This is why I've been running it heavy. This does seem odd though, as I don't think I've ever seen a cartridge that was lighter than 6g. I suppose it’s possible that this kit was meant to be played with the lid open, or the folks at Thorens weren’t paying attention when they selected the arm (this is a 160 Super and this is the factory installed arm). Later 707's had an additional ring weight that mounted over the main counter weight, which would be helpful here, but my particular arm doesn't have this item.

In any event, the frequency response is rated at 20 – 22,000 Hz. If I’m understanding ‘compliance’ based on the description, it sounds as though the MM stylus/magnet piece moves further and has greater flexibility, which in my mind would make it slower and les detailed because more energy was being expended in the movement itself as opposed to transmitting what’s in the grove. On the other hand, the greater movement might also able to generate greater current, thereby allowing for generally higher outputs? Just guessing.

The other problem I have if I take the tracking force down below 2g is that the tracking bounces out of the grove with almost any footfall, even with the sprung TT (the springs are in good condition and adjusted properly).

SO, I guess the question really is, given my tone arm, warts and all, what would be a good cartridge? Sounds like I’ve got to go with a low mass unit and that D103 is not my puppy.

Phew! And I though I was asking a simple question.

2.75g is not "a little heavy." It is grossly overweight. In any case, sounds like the later addition of that extra ring weight is the ticket. Perhaps you could improvise something to that effect. This may well serve you regardless of what cartridge you spring for.

Your interpretation of the MM compliancy issue is incorrect. The amount the cantilever moves is dependent on the groove, not the compliancy. The high compliancy of a MM is offset by the higher mass of the magnet. This high moving mass is what makes MMs not as detailed as their MC brethren. The coils on a MC are much lower mass than the magnets of the MM thus making them less sluggish. In addition, low output MCs use less coils with less mass, making them even more responsive and thusly more refined. This is why people go to great lengths to accommodate the very low outputs of these cartridges. There are, of course, other mitigating factors. The ring magnets of the Transfiguration carts, for instance, very closely coupled to very small, low impedance coils, have quite healthy outputs, thus providing the best of both worlds.

It sounds like from your tracking issues that you may need to address your table mounting. A good wall mount shelf could help.

Sorry Grimace, here we go again. You apparently failed to understand what I wrote or I failed to state it clearly.

Moving your counterweight further back will REDUCE your tracking force. If you must move it back to increase your measured force, something is drastically wrong. And your lightweight 6.6 gram cartridge makes this more the case. If anything, with your set up it would seem you could not get close to the recommended tracking weight with your counterweight all the way forward (closest to the pivot point).

Next, published frequency response of a cartridge (never believable anyway) has nothing to do with compliance and resonant frequency. even though both may be stated in Hz. The resonant frequency should be below the lowest frequency on a record but not so low as potential rumble with your turntable. This is why the 7 or 8 Hz to 12 Hz range is often recommended, it falls between these critical areas.

So, at this point before you: a) take further steps to set your VTF (BTW your Shure instructions should tell you to measure with the brush up but compensate the force accordingly), b) consider installing your Grace arm on your Thorens, or c) begin shopping for a cartridge other than your Shure, STOP and do more research on cartridge installation and adjustments. I recommended some sources previously. Please, I hope I do not offend you (I'm trying to help) but your replies indicate you do not have basic understanding about the workings of tables/arms/cartridges. Further questions at this point are not productive until you gain a better grasp of these relationships. Some other choices to Google are Laura Dearborn and Robert Harley who have written very good introductions such as you need.

Again, good luck with this, Don't get discouraged because eventually you will be rewarded with understanding and then some great music.

Pryso,

I think Grimace made it clear that he was having difficulty getting the VTF light enough which is why he had the counter weight so far back. The extra counterweight ring would certainly help in his stated predicament. It appears that he has, perhaps, done his homework sufficiently to set the cartridge, although double checking couldn't hurt. It looks like you and I may be cross posting due to the delay in the posting process. ;-)