Denon DL 103 vs DL 103R

2.75g is not "a little heavy." It is grossly overweight. In any case, sounds like the later addition of that extra ring weight is the ticket. Perhaps you could improvise something to that effect. This may well serve you regardless of what cartridge you spring for.

Your interpretation of the MM compliancy issue is incorrect. The amount the cantilever moves is dependent on the groove, not the compliancy. The high compliancy of a MM is offset by the higher mass of the magnet. This high moving mass is what makes MMs not as detailed as their MC brethren. The coils on a MC are much lower mass than the magnets of the MM thus making them less sluggish. In addition, low output MCs use less coils with less mass, making them even more responsive and thusly more refined. This is why people go to great lengths to accommodate the very low outputs of these cartridges. There are, of course, other mitigating factors. The ring magnets of the Transfiguration carts, for instance, very closely coupled to very small, low impedance coils, have quite healthy outputs, thus providing the best of both worlds.

It sounds like from your tracking issues that you may need to address your table mounting. A good wall mount shelf could help.

Sorry Grimace, here we go again. You apparently failed to understand what I wrote or I failed to state it clearly.

Moving your counterweight further back will REDUCE your tracking force. If you must move it back to increase your measured force, something is drastically wrong. And your lightweight 6.6 gram cartridge makes this more the case. If anything, with your set up it would seem you could not get close to the recommended tracking weight with your counterweight all the way forward (closest to the pivot point).

Next, published frequency response of a cartridge (never believable anyway) has nothing to do with compliance and resonant frequency. even though both may be stated in Hz. The resonant frequency should be below the lowest frequency on a record but not so low as potential rumble with your turntable. This is why the 7 or 8 Hz to 12 Hz range is often recommended, it falls between these critical areas.

So, at this point before you: a) take further steps to set your VTF (BTW your Shure instructions should tell you to measure with the brush up but compensate the force accordingly), b) consider installing your Grace arm on your Thorens, or c) begin shopping for a cartridge other than your Shure, STOP and do more research on cartridge installation and adjustments. I recommended some sources previously. Please, I hope I do not offend you (I'm trying to help) but your replies indicate you do not have basic understanding about the workings of tables/arms/cartridges. Further questions at this point are not productive until you gain a better grasp of these relationships. Some other choices to Google are Laura Dearborn and Robert Harley who have written very good introductions such as you need.

Again, good luck with this, Don't get discouraged because eventually you will be rewarded with understanding and then some great music.

Pryso,

I think Grimace made it clear that he was having difficulty getting the VTF light enough which is why he had the counter weight so far back. The extra counterweight ring would certainly help in his stated predicament. It appears that he has, perhaps, done his homework sufficiently to set the cartridge, although double checking couldn't hurt. It looks like you and I may be cross posting due to the delay in the posting process. ;-)

Notwithstanding the fact that the 103/103R will not be a good match with the Grace as others have mentioned, there is also, as others have alluded to, something seriously wrong with the setup on Grimace's table.

It would be pretty unlikely that an extracounterweight would be necessary to balance a cartridge that weighs 6 grams; typically extra counterweights are necessary to balance heavier cartridges (as in the plus 8-10 gram category).

Crazy as it sounds, the first thing I would check is to make sure the counterweight is on the right way. Take it off, turn it around and re-install it on the arm, balance the arm to zero and re-set the tracking force and see what happens. Short of that, it might be worth taking the taking the table to someone who really knows table/arm setup to get this thing right. It's pretty likely that Grimace will be much happier when he gets this resolved, possibly to the point of not wanting to do an upgrade as it sounds like something is seriously out of whack with the setup at the moment.

Piedpiper, even if we end up cross posting, we are both trying to help Grimace set up to enjoy music. Anyway, I believe Hdm's last post offered a good summary.

It is apparent that Grimace has a real problem -

"The problem I have with the counterweight is that in order to get the tracking force down below 2g as recommended, I have to really turn the counterweight out pretty far to the point where its hitting the cover"

Moving the counterweight all the way to the rear of the stub, or adding extra weight, does not make sense to me either with a 6.6 gram cartridge. Perhaps getting the friend he borrowed the stylus force gage from to look at his set up could save further posting here.