Subwoofer: should we even use them at all?

Lewinski,

I've used several different configurations, but I'm currently taking the digital signal out of my QSonix server straight into the Onkyo via coax. The Onkyo does all DSP including x-over. The twin sub out of the Onkyo goes straight to my Rythmik subs and the main out goes to (at the moment) a pair of Cary 805s and on into a pair of OHM 100s. Sometimes, there's a different amp/main speaker combo, particularly if I'm using my Maggie MMGs, which require more grunt than the Carys can deliver.

BTW, I've previously used both of my current stand-alone DACs (Cambridge DAC Magic and Benchmark) for conversion, but - as I've noted - simplicity is important to me and I prefer the simplicity of one box. As to SQ, it's audibly different with each DAC (especially Benchmark vs Cambridge) and a matter of personal taste, but I like the sound of all three options and settled on the internal Onkyo DAC for the reasons stated above.

Further, BTW - there's an upgraded version of the Onkyo from one of the specialists (Upgrade Company?) that offers an in-home trial. At the moment, I'm kicking the idea of a trial around just to check out any potential improvements. If I pull the trigger, I'll post my impressions

Sorry, I missed the other half of your question. The configuration you describe might sound great, but it's (not to beat a dead horse) a little complex for my taste. In your shoes, I'd personally be inclined to look at something like the HK 990, which provides all the DSP (including x-over) and amplification in a single 2 channel box. As a bonus, it includes room correction, so you could A-B that against the Dirac to see which you prefer.

To be clear, that isn't a recommendation (tho I've heard and like the HK 990 quite a lot), just a simpler alternative that I'd likely pursue given my own particular priorities.

As to the required second DAC in the set-up that Dirac suggested, I can say that the Cambridge represents good value IMO.

For what its worth, here are some tricks I learned living with a Velodyne DD18:
-do as much of the setup in the analog domain as possible. Move the sub, adjust position, height etc before doing anything digital / EQ. In my ears, the less EQ the better.
- if you have a big heavy sub, consider a low trolley or similar. Positioning is not just a one-time issue. You may want to vary the sub position between "good" closer to a wall, and "optimal" more into the room, with different components in the system, room tweaks, etc.
- give it a sandbag on top (big improvement), better feet like Cerapucs (some improvement), plus a better power cable and interconnect (some).
- I have done a bit of room tuning including two Daad3 bass traps (that don't really catch much low bass, but help a bit in the 100hz or so region), but I don't believe in overinvestment at this point. It is very room-dependent. I have a fairly large 20 x 27 feet room.
-timing - better subs, materials etc may be a solution, but for now, move the sub closer to the listening position (DD18 is forward-firing). Often not so practical, but it can work.
-in some contexts the sub sounds better with the EQ and the crossover defeated. I was ridiculed for this viewpoint, in another thread, but sometimes it works, to get the best blend of sub and big speakers. The trick is to turn the sub volume REALLY LOW (like 4 of 30 steps at the DD18), so there is just a touch of deep bass. After awhile you'll notice that no more volume is needed.
- listen for the music not the bass as such. With optimal tweaking positioning you will hear more depth, more juicy treble instruments also, like flute in front of the speakers, bells sounding in the room, and similar.
- the speakers and sub should "grip" the room. Or make the room play along. I can hear this, for example, listening from a nearby room. I make better salads in our kitchen if the system plays well in the living room... But as noted above, this is a balancing act, hard to achieve perfectly.
- shifting phase 90 degrees can help cure standing modes (or a sub array).
- run the speakers full range, if they were designed for it. The sub is an add-on into the lowest frequencies. I have never had success cutting the bass to the main speakers. Even most monitors I have tried sounded best getting the full signal.

It is good to see that there are many ways to reach the same goal. I tried several subs ten years ago, before settling on the DD18. Mostly, they were too slow, lazy, or what one might call it (B&W ASW 800, REL Stratas) but I also remember a funny little over-active Sunfire that wheezed and danced on the floor when pushed. I had the Krell FPB600 / Dynaudio Consequence mk2 for ten years, and with this combo, I often liked the EQ and crossover defeat ("stealth"?) method. With my current Atma-sphere MA1s / Audiokinesis Dream Makers combo, however, it sounds best with a conventional setup, crossover at 44hz, a little EQ and 90 degrees phase. I can hear it, and it appears when I measure (using Rode mics and the REW program) also.

My problem, now, is that my new preamp (Einstein The Tube mk2) only has one set of volume-controlled outputs, going to the speakers, so if I want sub integration, I will have to use speaker level connections (or use the line out outputs on the preamp, and then adjust sub volume manually each time I adjust preamp volume - not realistic). In my experience this means worse sound (except for the REL subs, that were built for it) compared to preamp level connections. I have not tested yet, and the reason is that the new preamp sounds great and makes the whole system more muscular not least in the bass. So I am seriously thinking that perhaps the sub goes out the door. Yet I sometimes thought so, with the Krell/Dynaudio combo also, supposed to be bass leaders. So I guess the sub stays. Even if I don't use it for now, testing with / without sub is a luxury problem, compared to missing something and then pay a lot to try. And I still remember that great first impression late evening, with the DD18 in place: "hello, bass player".

I have a Rel Stadium III with my Parsifal and really enjoy the sound. The majority of the time, I listen with the monitor, woofer cabinet, and sub. The fun thing about most of the Verity speakers is that you can listen to many combinations.
I enjoy listening to them in different configurations when I have a nice stretch. Sometimes I listen to the monitor (vocals and strings). The monitors have nice speed and easily reach down into the low 40's. Sometimes I'll pull the sub out into the room and listen to the monitors and sub. Other times I turn off the sub.
I think I've integrated them to my tastes. Great speaker.

My Parsifal (Encore) barely makes the low 40hz range WITH the woofer cabinet - they start to quit in the mid 40s range and are well down by 40hz. The monitors start to roll off at about 55 to 60 hz in my room. There's a hump in the upper 40s thru the crossover region to the monitors that gives kick drum some extra (ahem) kick and a satisfying sense of bass with almost all music. Not exactly textbook accurate, but I love 'em with most program material, just not for the deepest bass.

I guess YMMV