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New TT ideas please

I'm doing a major upgrade to my system with the new electronics likely to be Audio Research REF3/110/PH7 (though may be PH5 in the interim)/Verity Parsifals. My Roksan Radius 5 is going to find a loving home, but I need some ideas of what to look at. Here are a few that appeal to me visually and reputationally, and a few that I've heard (all similar $$ roughly, budget seems to be about $6-$7.5k for table and arm):

1. Clearaudio Ambient (looks simple to setup and use), unify arm
2. Rega P9 with the 1000 arm (again, simple setup)
3. Michell Gyrodec or Orb (with the acrylic platform and cover)
4. Transrotor Atlantis with Origin Live tonearm
5. Redpoint turntable (a long shot) - looking for opinions

Excluding VPI, what else should I consider? I would like a company with a long standing history (Redpoint is questionable on this front), excellent build quality, not too finicky, sounds lively, involving, quiet background, controlled and detailed. I don't mind a touch forward, as I think the rest of the system could use a slightly forward source. Simplicity is preferred - I don't want to have to adjust things too often or it won't be used.

I have a fascination with Koetsu cartridges, so I want a TT that would suit an Urushi / Rosewood Signature cartridge. I also think transrotor is interesting, but their web site confuses me (only 3 models? I thought they had many more).

I will try my very best to hear them so what I'm asking is your best ideas and a little brain storming. I will only buy what sounds best to me and works with my system - no question about that.
hatari
dan_ed
2,451 posts
 
Pauly, while I agree with you that there are very well implemented suspended tables I think you have overstated a few things to make your point.

The platter is directly coupled to the plinth via the bearing, unless the bearing is of the magnetic/air type. The plinth on suspended tables are not directly coupled to the stand, but rather floating on the suspension. If there is sufficient drag on the platter during dynamic passages there actually could be a rotational twisting reaction on the platter/bearing/plinth as well as the drive. I do believe most higher quality suspended designs have addressed this to the point where you would probably not hear it.

As for thumping a non-suspended table and making the cartridge fly, I can tell you that that is much easier and more likely to happen with a suspended table. That is exactly the reason I moved from suspended a (Basis) to non-suspended (Galibier) table. It is not the first moment of impact that caused the stylus to jump. It was the second moment when the suspension jerked back to the steady-state position that the stylus left the groove because it wanted to keep going in the original direction of motion. Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion unless. . . yada, yada.

We can all look around and find good and bad implementations of both approaches. I don't think it is so easy to dismiss either when the implementation is well done. I still have a high regard for Basis tables but there are some things I would never try to do with any suspended table. Like adjusting VTA and AS while the stylus is in the groove. I realize this isn't important for everyone but it was for me. Lucky for me that I'm in a position that I don't have to have a suspended table.
hatari OP
94 posts
 
I've gone steeply up a curve on this thread alone. I know there are differing views and nuances, but you lot seem to handle such things in a very gentlemanly fashion (apologies to any ladies).

Many dealers lambaste the web, but those are the ones that don't like an educated customer.

Many, many thanks to all here.

Cheers
edle
235 posts
 
I used to have a Garrard 401 on my mono system in my home office. The 401 is dead mint and I constructed a high mass 7 layers Birch plywood plinth and quite happy with it.

The plinth was 22 x 24in. in size and weight approv. 40 to 50lbs. I also used a stethoscope on the plinth near the motor housing or on the tonearm base to see if I can heard some noise but I can't detected any. It sounds quite nice.

One day I bought the 401 upstair to my main system....The comparison was fair...Everythings were the same, the only difference was the tonearm wire inside the SME 3012 S2 tonearm. Same TT stand, same catridge, same setting in volume, same phono interconnect. When compared to the Verdier, The Garrard 401 was noisy. very noisy. There are alot of 'stuff' in the music background. Without the comparison with the Verdier, I cannot detected it. I sold the 401 the next day and I would say no more idler wheel TT for me.

If you have a Lenco, Garrard or even EMT 927 or 930, you should buy, borrow or steal:) a Verdier and compare it to your favourite idler wheel TT. You might have the same result as mine:) !!!!! The Verdier that I'm talking about is the one with the magnets.
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Terry,

Before you posted I stated clearly - twice - that I have not heard and was not commenting on the more costly suspended tables. For you to leap to the conclusion that I, "dismiss suspended turntables out of hand" was a considerable overstatement that ignored what I actually wrote.

So, why bring an $80,000 JEM Blue Pearl (12x Hatari's budget) into the discussion as a counter-example to something I very carefully did not say? I'm sure a $300K Ferrari would outperform my $25K Mazda and whatever car Hatari drives too. We knew that.

Suspensions are difficult to do well. Some very costly implementations may succeed, or not. I don't know - for the third time.

The ones I've heard within Hatari's budget did not meet his stated priorities (which are very similar to mine) as well as the four brands I mentioned. I've stated my relevant experiences and my understanding of them. Please share your own of course, but save the Michael Moore wisecracks.
pauly
1,012 posts
 
Dan, my understanding of plinth is the non suspended 'chassis'. My apologies if I used the term incorrectly.

I do not slate non suspended tables. Suspension plays a very small part in my choice of table. It is all down to implementation. My posts were in response to Doug slating suspended tables and then motivating with one liners.

There seems to be this commonly accepted 'truism' that suspended tables are soft on bass and transients because their suspension allows the platter to 'give' way. That is simply ridiculous considering the effective mass of the platter assembly vs. that of the tonearm cart combination. Any movement caused by a rise or depression in the record groove will be manifested in the tonearm moving up or down. As such, both suspended and non suspended tables suffer this phenomena equally.

+++ If there is sufficient drag on the platter during dynamic passages there actually could be a rotational twisting reaction on the platter/bearing/plinth as well as the drive. +++

Dan, the drag required to cause that would probably cause the stylus to be ripped out of my Koetsu. I can report my Koetsu is still fine.

+++ Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion unless. . . yada, yada +++

Actually they do not. If they could, we would have perpetual movement machines that actually work. I can assure you, my TT is dead still ... always. It doesn't budge. The times I have (accidently) bumped it, it returned to equilibrium in second, with no stylus sliding across the LP.

BTW, I adjust my VTA on the fly every time a play an LP. In fact, I adjust a couple of times per LP and would consider buying an arm w/o this ability. Cannot fathom why you consider it an issue on suspended tables as I most certainly do not have the steadiest hands (or best eyesight) by a long shot.

Regards
Paul
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