2. analog
  3. 1197397501

An Audiophile Goal

An Audiophile Goal.

I have been grappling with the perceived problem of listening to LPs at the same volume setting, for every LP. The original post that I addressed this problem with is here http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1179765549&openmine&zzAcoustat6&4&5#Acoustat6. It was to discuss my idea of playing back all LPs at the same volume setting regardless of type of music or recording etc. To say it was a debacle would be an understatement to say the least. The discussion did not start the way I thought it would and went quickly downhill from there. I would like to put that behind me and realize why it was so controversial and failed as a discussion. As I originally said this idea was new to me and it took such a long time to coagulate my thoughts about this and the reasons why it works. The answer is obvious now. I didn't have an audiophile goal.

I got the answer from reading the recent post about J. Gordon Holts article in Stereophile which was discussed on Audiogon. .
The reference being about an audiophile goal in one of the posts. This was my thought, myself and audiophiles in general don't have an audiophile goal (actually, I do have several but I will stick to the topic). It seems that no one can agree on a goal, its all so subjective some say, I like it loud, I like it quiet, I like a lot of bass, I like imaging and on and on. This is fine, that is why we all buy different speakers and equipment. It comes down to you can't measure music. You have to hear it, does it make your toe tap? Can you listen at a low level? Is the tweeter too bright? Is the Bass too loud? Ad nauseum. And there we go again are my toes tapping enough? What is low level listening? Is the bass loud enough for hip hop but too loud for a violin concerto?

I found myself an audiophile goal and an easy one at that, its 20-20k hz. Yeah, you like it too. Right? You buy phono cartridges, pre-amps amps etc. that are flat 20-20k hz. So my audiophile goal is to get 20-20k hz flat (as possible). I said I needed a goal! I know there is more to it than that, but undeniably it is a goal. Now if I go with a test reference of 83db at 1000hz from my test LP this will be an excellent level for dynamics, noise levels and acuteness of hearing. All that is required is 1000hz at 83db from the test LP and all other freq matching this level, So 10,000hz and 5,000hz along with 500,100, 80, 50 and 30hz with all of the freq in between at the specified level of 83db will all be played back off of the test LP at the same level or as close as possible as can be obtained within a systems speakers and equipment and rooms limitations. Find this level and you leave your volume control set to this position for every LP you play. Pretty simple actually.

The original idea came to me slowly over the last three to four years, though I struggled with the quandary for as long as I can remember and I have yet to hear anyone say, sure you don't do that? I thought we all did. All because I didn't have an audiophile goal. Now I find out that perhaps even J. Gordon Holt may not have an audiophile goal, even one as simple as this. The best thing is now I get to listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting with its attendant qualities of dynamics, constant noise levels, unchanging freq response and a host of other benefits which come along for the ride.

I knew it was wrong to be changing volume levels and bass levels for different LPs. Jumping up in the middle of a song to hear the bass drums or turning it down for a quiet violin solo and doing the same for complete albums. It was insane, I always felt like I was in junior high school cranking it up for the cool parts. But every one does it, so did I. I was missing that audiophile goal.

I enjoy listening to my Lps, many of which I still have from my early high school days and everything in between which amounts to about 2500 quality LPs. As a now confirmed audiophile, now that I have a realistic and perhaps more importantly a measurable goal, I could start figuring out which albums sound good and which do not. It was easy, every LP is played back at the same gain level (volume control setting if you will) and guess what you hear? Every Lp for what it actually sounds like.

Another benefit is that every system you hear is played back to the same standard from the same test LP, perhaps it could even be used at audio shows where every room is played back at this reference setting. If you choose not to listen at the standard then it is stated at the door that reference setting is either higher or lower than the reference. This way if you choose not to abuse your hearing in a room that is 6db above the reference standard you are warned before entering.

And all of this because J Gordon Holt didn't have an audiophile goal.

If you can listen to one Lp at a certain level whether it be a high or low level why can't you listen to any other record at that level?

Just a few thoughts.
Thanks,
Bob
acoustat6
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi Dave, Thanks for having continued interest in this discussion. Actually there are many reasons for this and not limited to the few listed now.

A set level where all LPs have the ability to reveal their sonic character.

A set level for system noise.

A set level for LP/TT noise.

A set level that is consistent with human hearing at a "reasonable" level. This is NOT an arbitrary number/level.

To obtain a consistent and natural frequency level.

To set your system up within it limitations of system performance.

To obtain synergy between components.

To know what is needed to improve your system so all LPs can sound as good as they can sound, while poorly recorded LPs are revealed for what they are.

To be able to have some set goals that are obtainable and realistic.

There are other reasons that go along for the ride.

You only need so much amplification and you will know how much you need.

We don't look like a fools jumping up and down to impress our friends with our intimate knowledge of the volume control. Saying things like, this drum solo sound great LOUD, and now this part sounds great like this...
Do you wonder, if you have to do this, that your system is compressing dynamics?

It will force some people to actually listen to the music, recordings and their system. This statement is sure to get a few peoples undies in a bunch, I am ready.

Perhaps its a bit of a Zen thing at first. Just sitting there and listening to music. Maybe for the first time you will listen to the music, recording, pressing and condition of your LP playback.
Perhaps it will draw you in, to listen to downward dynamics and then shock you with your systems upward dynamics. Setting up your sytem this way encourages this. And unfortunatly show you that most LPs are compressed, noisy and have bad sonics. Fortunatly many LPs are quite listenable, even revealing the shortcomings, and great LPs are revealed.

So we all know, when stating things like I listen loud/soft, the dealer, audio show, friend etc.. cranked it up, we know what is meant by that.

Bob
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
Bob, you gave it a mighty try, but I'll need to agree to disagree. I seem not to have budged you one bit and I still think your goal will not yield fruit.

Thanks for the fun discussion and happy holidays.

Dave
pedrillo
560 posts
 
I would like to contribute my humble thoughts. I am not looking to upset anyone or cause confrontation, just expressing my thoughts.
We live in a world that deprived us of true individuality, clear insight into life, how to reason and most of all the truth. Our education system which is responsible for this (mainstream commonfolk education system) is designed to get us to conform, obey the law and allow the rich to toy with society at large. In general the system does not reinforce enough that everything should be questioned. Most everything that is said or beleived by individuals is just repeated and never evaluated. Everything the media pushes on us is to distract us from real issues. Proof is what "they" get away with.
I don't want to rant but this is the heart of the matter. We have been lied to from day one to such a large extent that the truth is nearly impossible to find. Sure it works for the most part, the country is stable, but at what expense. What percentage of the population understands and enjoys fine cuisine, good music and cultural destinations ? Food is not explicitely to arouse our taste senses only but to nourish us as well. This contributes to robust health and balanced cognitive function. We need to nourish ourselves in order to function optimally, but without knowing this we can not reverse this destructive cycle.
We should be spoiling ourselves! Fine food, vacations to cultural destinations, concert subscriptions etc. should be a part of everyones life!! But because the rich run our country the middleclass cannot afford to live a fullfilling life because it is paying more than it should in taxes.
Audiophiles represent a segment of society with higher intellect. We appreciate music, an artform that moves the soul. We connect with musicians and composers. Music makes us happy. We learned to think for ourselves and don't blindly follow mags reviews.
I would tend to believe most audiophiles are moved by food as well.
We should be enjoying life and loving what we do.
Ask yourself- Am I enjoying my listening sessions?
We all have different tastes and perceptions. Find what works for you and take it to a higher level by exploring different components or rituals.
And by the way my hearing is influenced by my diet and supplementation, it may make a difference for you as well.
I hope what I said helped. If it angered anyone just ignore what I said most of my shallow friends do and I prefer it that way.
In the end I would like to see everyone have fun and find meaning in life.
stringreen's avatar
stringreen
6,470 posts
 
Nice, Padrillo
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Emailists said, "I realize this issue of playing back all LP's at a common level is important to you, but please realize that you are perhaps the only one in the world who this is important to."

Actually, it is important to everyone, its just that you don't realize it. I think, that perhaps, it is you who doesn' get it, the reasons why poorly recorded/mastered/pressed LPs sound bad. It is because they do! We all know that poorly recorded/pressed LPs can never sound good, so why keep denying it? And why keep altering you system to accomomdate them? Isn't this why we search for good/great sounding LPs? Can I/you put on an poorly recorded/pressed/mastered LP and and manipulate it enough to sound "good"? Including by manipulating the sound through the "biggest" equalizer we have, the volume control. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Do you think, that a crappy recording, if played on a less resolving system improves the recording or that perhaps we can manipulate it enough that it "becomes musical".

You, yourself, answered these questions here in one of your own posts.
In your recent post "Listening to low quality" you said;

"On my main system....The recording totally falls apart. Hard to listen to. Not overly bright- but just thin, echo'ey, distorted, and not too enjoyable.

Back in my computer system all is well and I can really enjoy the music again.

I'm Just trying to think through what if any implications this has for my main system. It may make me think about those less than stellar real recordings in a new way.

After all ,it is musical enjoyment and fidelity to the original recording we're after, but can too much fidelity subtract from the musical enjoyment?

Just thinking out loud. Could something like a very tubey, bloomey, bufferstage that actually lowers resolution by a large amount and blurs musical details be a potential bandaid?"

Emailists

10-20-07

"Our hobby is an obssesive one for sure, but when other people who share your zeal for the best reproduction possible are telling you that your focus is misguided, you may have to examen in your life what is going on, perhaps under the guidance of a professional...."

Apparently everyone here on the Gon needs profesional help, from the single driver speaker aficionodos to the electrosattic speaker admirer to the SS amp lover and their tube lover counterparts and dont forget CD vs LPs, are we are all misguided if we think differently from each other?

How about Acoustic Resonators surely I didn't recommend "professional help" when you said,

"I put the Resonator on its stand (which was still stuck to the wall) behind me, and imediatley it sounded more dimensional, so I am once again a believer."

"Dear doctor I think its you instead"

"You might even find you're enjoying listening to music more without worrying about the levels each LP/recording was cut at."

I am enjoying it perfectly well, and do not have to worry about the different playback levels, that is the wonder of the way my system is set up.

Bob
More to discover