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An Audiophile Goal

An Audiophile Goal.

I have been grappling with the perceived problem of listening to LPs at the same volume setting, for every LP. The original post that I addressed this problem with is here http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1179765549&openmine&zzAcoustat6&4&5#Acoustat6. It was to discuss my idea of playing back all LPs at the same volume setting regardless of type of music or recording etc. To say it was a debacle would be an understatement to say the least. The discussion did not start the way I thought it would and went quickly downhill from there. I would like to put that behind me and realize why it was so controversial and failed as a discussion. As I originally said this idea was new to me and it took such a long time to coagulate my thoughts about this and the reasons why it works. The answer is obvious now. I didn't have an audiophile goal.

I got the answer from reading the recent post about J. Gordon Holts article in Stereophile which was discussed on Audiogon. .
The reference being about an audiophile goal in one of the posts. This was my thought, myself and audiophiles in general don't have an audiophile goal (actually, I do have several but I will stick to the topic). It seems that no one can agree on a goal, its all so subjective some say, I like it loud, I like it quiet, I like a lot of bass, I like imaging and on and on. This is fine, that is why we all buy different speakers and equipment. It comes down to you can't measure music. You have to hear it, does it make your toe tap? Can you listen at a low level? Is the tweeter too bright? Is the Bass too loud? Ad nauseum. And there we go again are my toes tapping enough? What is low level listening? Is the bass loud enough for hip hop but too loud for a violin concerto?

I found myself an audiophile goal and an easy one at that, its 20-20k hz. Yeah, you like it too. Right? You buy phono cartridges, pre-amps amps etc. that are flat 20-20k hz. So my audiophile goal is to get 20-20k hz flat (as possible). I said I needed a goal! I know there is more to it than that, but undeniably it is a goal. Now if I go with a test reference of 83db at 1000hz from my test LP this will be an excellent level for dynamics, noise levels and acuteness of hearing. All that is required is 1000hz at 83db from the test LP and all other freq matching this level, So 10,000hz and 5,000hz along with 500,100, 80, 50 and 30hz with all of the freq in between at the specified level of 83db will all be played back off of the test LP at the same level or as close as possible as can be obtained within a systems speakers and equipment and rooms limitations. Find this level and you leave your volume control set to this position for every LP you play. Pretty simple actually.

The original idea came to me slowly over the last three to four years, though I struggled with the quandary for as long as I can remember and I have yet to hear anyone say, sure you don't do that? I thought we all did. All because I didn't have an audiophile goal. Now I find out that perhaps even J. Gordon Holt may not have an audiophile goal, even one as simple as this. The best thing is now I get to listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting with its attendant qualities of dynamics, constant noise levels, unchanging freq response and a host of other benefits which come along for the ride.

I knew it was wrong to be changing volume levels and bass levels for different LPs. Jumping up in the middle of a song to hear the bass drums or turning it down for a quiet violin solo and doing the same for complete albums. It was insane, I always felt like I was in junior high school cranking it up for the cool parts. But every one does it, so did I. I was missing that audiophile goal.

I enjoy listening to my Lps, many of which I still have from my early high school days and everything in between which amounts to about 2500 quality LPs. As a now confirmed audiophile, now that I have a realistic and perhaps more importantly a measurable goal, I could start figuring out which albums sound good and which do not. It was easy, every LP is played back at the same gain level (volume control setting if you will) and guess what you hear? Every Lp for what it actually sounds like.

Another benefit is that every system you hear is played back to the same standard from the same test LP, perhaps it could even be used at audio shows where every room is played back at this reference setting. If you choose not to listen at the standard then it is stated at the door that reference setting is either higher or lower than the reference. This way if you choose not to abuse your hearing in a room that is 6db above the reference standard you are warned before entering.

And all of this because J Gordon Holt didn't have an audiophile goal.

If you can listen to one Lp at a certain level whether it be a high or low level why can't you listen to any other record at that level?

Just a few thoughts.
Thanks,
Bob
acoustat6
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rauliruegas
13,103 posts
 
Dear Bob: I agree with your two: " do you agree? ", but that happen at almost any SPL!!!

I posted about the deviations on your phono stage to have a reference that that flat frequency goal ( almost desired one ) is a very complex one, I'm in favor of that goal and accuracy to the recording with the whole factors that involve that accuracy to the recording for obtain enjoy and pleasure when we hear/heard our audio systems or any audio system.

As you can read in what I posted I like you heard/hear my audio system at almost one SPL and I change when " that " ( any ) LP was recorded at out of standard recording levels. If you read again you can " see " that my audio system ( with out any previous measure SPL set-up ) SPL set-up almost coincide with your ( start point ) 83 db at 1khz: mine 84 db ( I made this measure to fast,, so maybe is nearer your number. Btw, some years ago I made the measure of my room-system and was very evenly through the audio frequency, today I heard better than on those days, maybe is better. )

I already posted that that 83 db SPL at " your seat " is a very good point to start but what factors will define that you will be satisfied with that SPL?, extremely complex too many factors to take it as a rule, for example: two similar room-audio systems with the same model speakers but with a " little " different speaker specification: sensitivity, one 86 db at one meter and the other 90 db on that same efficiency factor.
Do you think that you can/could be satisfied obtaining ( the same for both ) that 83 db at your seat position?, well maybe yes and maybe not depending on your amplifier ( between other things ) and if that amplifier mantain his distortions level at any measure current demanding. In our example we are " asking " more than double watts at the amplifier with the 86 db efficiency speaker and I'm almost sure that the distortion of that amplifier will be higher in this case and over the time from listening to this speaker ( against the other ) the ear/brain fatigue will be higher and maybe you have to lower that SPL. This is only an example with only one factor in " game " ( well not one but two. ), imagine hundred of factors that influence what we are hearing in our audio system and you can see that that subject is complex!!!! for say the least.

Anyway, I repeat, I agree with you about that 83 db ( at seat position ) start point is: welcome!!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
inpepinnovations
134 posts
 
Bob, to determine the 'correct' volume for each LP, as stated before, I have calibrated the playback system meters to indicate a peak level at around 90 db (a simple spl meter installed at the listening location serves as the basis)and then run through the LP and vary the volume setting and note which it is for that peak and record that setting on the jacket.

Of course, depending on the dynamics of the LP, the average readings obtained for each record change.

Bob P.
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
Analogue Production's 180 gram, 45 rpm version of Hugh Mesekela's "Hope" has close to 40dB of dynamic range. If you set it for its peak at 90dB, lots of it is going to be playing at a very low level (below 60dB).

I find that short bursts up above 90 and even 100dB are not harsh or harmful in my system. I do go for an average in the mid 80dB range. With "Hope" I'll lower that about 6dB, which still results in some HUGE sounds at the peaks, but for only short bursts.

Dave
stringreen's avatar
stringreen
6,478 posts
 
BECAUSE ROCK MUSIC IS SUPPOSED TO BE LOUDER THAN string quarters
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi Raul, You say that you agree with the two statements that if you do not change the volume control level that 1) the noise level never changes and 2) that the LPs overall volume level does not change, both of these are very obvious. Therefore we would then have an unchanging "potential" noise level (some LPs are noiser than others, but your systems noise level would stay constant) and also we could immediatly tell which LP is "louder". Now all we would have to do is find a reasonable volume level.

No offence take on the Hagerman comments, my intention not to bring equipment into the mix was to keep the discussion on topic and not to bring other variables into it.

Raul said, "for example: two similar room-audio systems with the same model speakers but with a " little " different speaker specification: sensitivity, one 86 db at one meter and the other 90 db on that same efficiency factor.
Do you think that you can/could be satisfied obtaining ( the same for both ) that 83 db at your seat position?, well maybe yes and maybe not depending on your amplifier ( between other things ) and if that amplifier mantain his distortions level at any measure current demanding. In our example we are " asking " more than double watts at the amplifier with the 86 db efficiency speaker and I'm almost sure that the distortion of that amplifier will be higher in this case and over the time from listening to this speaker ( against the other ) the ear/brain fatigue will be higher and maybe you have to lower that SPL."

I say EXACTLY! If your system is incapable of producing this level, why would you turn your system up above that point for any LP! You need to approach the reference level not attack it.
This is how one would set up their system. Play back every LP at the same gain setting. Are there LPs that are too loud at that level? Back it off or figure out why this is so. Are some LPs too low at that Level? How can that be? Is you system unable to handle the dynamics of various LPs? Do you have to turn your system up and down in an attempt to get dynamics or a "correct" level for a type of music? Is your system compressing even simple things like the various recording levels of different LPs?
And let's not forget that alot of LPs are not recorded/mastered/pressed correctly, these are the LPs we are trying to ferret out. LPs that are not "correct" are not made any better by changing volume levels. Especially overly compressed LPs such as B. Springsteen etc.. turning up a vintage rock LP, only serves to bring up its noise level.

Raul said, "imagine hundred of factors that influence what we are hearing in our audio system and you can see that that subject is complex!!!! for say the least."

I say you are correct and that those are the factors that we need to address in our system/room interaction to obtain fine playback. Not changing gain/bass levels to mask the problems.

Again, don't get too hung up on "the number" it is just one part of the equation. There is much more to it than that.
Bob
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