vintage turntables?

Gentlemen I am an avid vintage equipment collector. At the same time I have the audiophile bug in me. I have been reading this thread for some time now and some posts really make my laugh, others just make me shake my head. To the fellow that bought a Sota Cosmos III and had it upgraded to a Cosmos IV and then he fell for a Technics all i have to say is that his Comsos must have had some major issue with the electronics. For a moment reading this post I thought I had written it and had forgoten about it up to a certain point. You see I also bought a Cosmos III (used) and had it upgraded to a IV and NOTHING absolutely NOTHING mentioned in this thread can handle a candle to it. I had a Technics 1200 MK V that I used in my secondary system that I also put up against the Cosmos. It did not have the KAB upgrades and could not even hold a canlde to the Cosmos. I got rid of it, I could not stand this D-J look and the sound was cold and uninvolving with my Grado Reference cartridge. Now I own a Sony PS-X600 with a Shure 97 whatever cartridge, a Pioneer PL 570 (wooden base) and my pride and joy a Yamaha PF-800 by far the best of the bunch. I love the Grado sound and have used Grados for over a decade now and both the Pioneer and the Yamaha have Grado Sonatas on them). Each time I bought one of these vintage jewels I wished they had the cojones to displace the Sota but each time the Cosmos proved to be the musical 800 LB gorilla in my main system. Please read: I WNATED one of the vintage TTs to displace the Cosmos! I would sell it use the money for other stuff! My wishes were not asnwred! The Cosmos always sounded the best. Needless to say I always used my Grado Reference on the "contenders" just to keep the fight even...

I have kept the Pioneer and the Yamaha and I am going to give the Sony to my teenage daughter as a gift. She is also bitten by the audiophile bug...

The last couples of years or so I have acquired various vintage receivers ( Sansui 9090, Pioneer SX 1080, Sansui AU 717, Marantz 2275B, Sansui PX-800, Sony PS-X600, Pioneer PL 570, Kenwood KR-6600, Klipsh legacys II, Klipsh Forte etc. etc.). I have put each and every onw of these against my audiophile rig (Musical Fidelity KW 500, Egglestone Andra II speakers, Sota Cosmos with Origin Live Conqueror arm and Grado Reference cartridge, monarchy Audio M24 DAC and an older Yamaha CDX-810UCD player that I use as a transport) and the results have always been the same: No contest! I enjoy those as much as can be and I am always on the lookout for something "new" and different but I also know that science and technology does go ahead and given the same standards of build and quality newer technology outperforms older one. And this applies to cars, stereo equipment, Home appliances, airplanes and pencils.

Wishful thinking aside you can dream that your vintage TT or receiver can beat their modern equivalents any time of the day but in the end it will all be just that: Wishful Thinking. No, you do not have to be afraid of the super pricey TTs and I do agree that a lot of them are mostly hot air and moronic pricing but please come down to earth and smell the roses. Or just live your dreams and be happy. Thinking about it my POS chryshler Pacifica does handle better that that overpriced lexus, mercedes or Ferrari...or is it even better than those if I soup it up???

Enjoy the hobby guys...do not take this too seriously.

Cheers

Musicgioni, it kinda depends on the Technics doesn't it? This seems to be at the crux of what you were saying. The 1200 is an OK machine, nothing special. If you want to hear a better one, you need an SP-10 MkII or MkIII.

The 1200 is easy to find, the SP-10 is not, and when you find one be prepared to spend real money.

Most vintage machines are easily surpassed by newer 'tables today. But there are a few older machines that have a following, and mostly because they keep up with newer machines (although usually they need refurbishment and then an update, which in some cases is extensive).

These machines, as far as I can tell are the Technics SP-10s, the Garrard 301, the Lenco idler-drive, the Empire 208 and not a whole lot else (although I might have missed one...). These machines have several features in common: heavy platter, robust precision bearing, robust drive system: overall good speed stability. Most older machines suffer acoustic resonance problems, which are usually a good portion of the update applied. Often you wind up with a machine that would cost as much as a new one too :)

Atmasphere,

There is truth in what you say as well as Musicgioni. Vintage equipment should be upgraded and serviced in order to have a correct evaluation with it's modern counterpart.

For the most part new does trounce old , but not always and this varies from category to category and how do we categorize vintage?

In the case of a TT , the Technics was avg 30 yrs ago and still avg today hence the results, academic really. Take any of the top turners from past era's, Micro Sieki, Garrard, Thorens, SME, Linn et al and I'm positive they will stand up to the best of today ..

Crap many TT companies consider acrylic the only way to go when making a TT..My Connoisseur TT of 37 yrs ago was all acrylic ..:)

Japanese receivers and amplfiers were considered avg sonically 30 yrs ago, nothing hi-end and nothing will change that today. There allure is not sonics IMO, but the beauty of a bygone era, where each brand had it's own face and features were galore, nothing like the bland one knob stuff being sold today ...

Regards,

Musicgioni,

What decent 60's vintage tables had you listened to? I don't see any restored vintage tube amps. Is it all 70's stuff that you're touting as your vintage experience? I am sure the Comet does hold its own against a myriad of 70's tables, but that's hardly saying that you have enough to make any claims about vintage tables.

Your speakers are great and i am sure that they out class upper-mid-fi speakers like the Fortes, it does not seem like a fair comparison?

Weseixas, I would agree that *most* Technics machines are rather ordinary. The SP-10s are an exception. They have a lot of excellent engineering that went into their servo design, of the likes that you don't see these days. As a result, they represent the pinnacle of direct-drive machines, and if refurbished and properly set up, challenge any modern 'table.

This is why these machines command some rather amazing prices on the used market, particularly the SP-10 Mk3.