matching tt to music

Jallen, this is my exact experience with a Shure V15 II. I've heard the later models are better. I've also received advice from a couple of other Thorens owners with similar problems, to use a highly colored, ie. plenty of technicolor and warmth, cartridge. Both didn't tell me which cartridge they use, duh... Hoping to get that information.

Thanks Tvad, I will look into that, it may be the VPI allignment jig is not the best means to proper allignment. In the meantime, I'm trying a thread belt vs. the VPI rubber belt, we shall see.

My comment about you picking the "wrong" turntable is based upon your own statements:

At a recent audio show I spoke with perhaps 20 audio dealers/distributors about whether I should purchase a VPI or Nottingham tt. I specifically asked which would be the more musical sounding. About 70% of them (most did not sell either line) favored the Nottinghams.

I almost pulled the trigger on the same Scheu tt and tonearm you own at an audio show a few months ago. Even had a home demo setup with the dealer, PrimeOne Media out of Canton Mi. Ended up with the VPI setup because I ran into an opportuntiy to purchase the whole VPI line at a substantial discount on a continuing basis.

It sounds to me that based upon the sonics you would have preferred either turntable to the VPI. Did the other turntables also make you 70s rock recordings sound unpleasant?

I am perfectly happy with the VPI when synergy is attained. It sounds wonderful with well recorded lps and lousy with lousy recordings, isn't that how it should be

Why does it have to be that way? The fact that your system makes some recordings sound less than stellar is one thing, but a well sorted out system shouldn't spotlight a recording's imperfections. A top flight recording studio system should spotlight imperfections since the system is being used as a tool. That's not the goal of a home system and one shouldn't have that spotlighting problem.

I thought it was accepted that high resolution was the goal of higher audio.

No! The goal of higher audio is basically the same as lower audio, namely to enjoy listening to music. The methodology and the equipment employed will differ, but it's still the same goal. I don't think anybody would intentionally put together a system that makes their favorite recordings sound unpleasant, but it can happen. It's my opinion that you're more likely to end up unhappy if you focus too much upon resolution, musicality, soundstage, etc. and not enough upon the big picture goal of finding enjoyment through listening to well reproduced music.

It might help if you describe the rest of your system.

Onhwy61,you may be correct, this may be the wrong tt for me, I suspected as much when I first went in this direction. As mentioned previously, the reason I went with the VPI is the discounted prices I was able to secure. I was going to purchase a Nottingham or Scheu prior.

I never did audition either the Nottingham or Scheu within my system, ie. I can't tell you whether they play poorer quality lps better than the VPI setup, I can't make a buying decision based solely on what I hear at a show. As I mentioned previously, my Thorens does make 70's classic rock sound better than the VPI. I think it is likely some other tt's would as well.

As for equipment being a mirror on the software, good lps sound good, bad lps sound bad. I would describe this as neutrality, whether that is good or bad is based on one's perception. I don't know that my system is 'spotlighting' recording's imperfections, perhaps its only exposing what is really imperfect. The mirror may be projecting a perfectly precise image of the object looking into the mirror. Any deviation from the original image is not as truthful.

On the other hand, as I mentioned previously, we may want to pretty up that image looking into the mirror. Perhaps this is what the more musical tt does, it seems reasonable that I want a tt that does that for the more poorly recorded lps. Still, a tt that projects a prettier image than the image looking into it, is a distortion. A beautiful image looking into the mirror may turn ugly with increased prettiness. Therefore, a beautiful sounding lp may end up sounding excessively euphonic going through a more 'musical' player.

I know high resolution is not the only goal of higher audio, it is only one of many sonic parameters we use to judge audio quality. Meeting only one of these goals, or indeed, all of these goals is not a guarantee that one will find musical enjoyment with that system. This is where perception comes in. I don't think there is any perfectly objective means to determine whether any of these sonic goals, has indeed, been met. This is why we have so much equipment to choose from, just think of the gulf between the high powered solid state amplifier and the 2wpc SET amplifier. Both meet at least some of the sonic goals of the designer and the listener, whether that results in sonic bliss is only in the eye of the beholder, that is perception.

I agree with you, the goal of all audio should be musical enjoyment. As I was trying to say above, meeting the goals of various sonic parameters may or may not guarantee this enjoyment. Percption is a huge variable in judging whether those goals have been met. Now, one could argue that goals of meeting sonic parameters are more or less important to achieving listening bliss. One can go overboard in attaching significance to individual sonic parameters, and likely end up with a system that does only some things right. Therefore, the listener attached greater significance to soundstaging vs. tonal balance, ending up with a system that is not musically satisfying. On the other hand, one may attach little or no significance to individual sonic parameters, and end up missing the boat as well. In spite of the fact one may attach little or no significance to individual sonic parameters, they are nevertheless, hearing those individual sonic parameters. These individual sonic parameters necessarily greatly impinge on our musical enjoyment.

I contend we can't get away from using sonic parameters as a means to acheiving musical enjoyment, no matter how much we may want it all to go away. This is an inherent quality of the audiophile, he or she uses various sonic parameters to ascertain sound. If enjoyable music listening is their only goal, they are simply not an audiophile. This is the bane and/or curse of the audiophile, and at the same time, the spur to achieve sonic greatness, which in turn is supposed to lead to greater musical enjoyment.

While I believe musical enjoyment should be the highest goal of audio, the road to that enjoyment is a very rough one for the audiophile. His very nature requires him to judge individual sonic parameters on his way to audio heaven, not an easy way to find musical enjoyment. Non-audiophiles, on the other hand, likely find it easier to find musical bliss, sonic parameters don't much matter, ipods and such are sufficient to bring musical enjoyment.

As for my circumstances. At this point I am planning on riding this VPI wave out. I will eventually try all the upgrades available for the Scoutmaster, do a lot of tweaking, and see where I end up. If that end place is not where I want to be, disposing and replacing will ensue.

My setup:
Dedicated 20amp AC lines
Oyaide R1 and Porter Port AC receptacles
VH Audio AirSine, Black Sand Silver Ref.IV, Shunyata Python Helix VX, Shunyata Cobra PCs
BPT 3.5 Sig. power conditioner, modded with all PorterPort AC receptacles, feeds all front end components
Joule Electra LA-100MkIII, GE black plate, RCA NOS tubes
Art Audio Carissa Signature, Brimar, Amperex input,drivers, TJ Fullmusic 845's
Merlin VSM-MM, Superbam with upgrades batteries, leadfree upgrades
Cardas Golden Ref. IC's and speaker cables-the gold standard for Merlin setups
Mark Levinson No. 37 transport
PAD Dominus digital cable
Perpetual Tech. P1A,P3A, Monolithic PS, all Dan Wright Ref. mods, plus numerous DIY mods,point to point wiring, AC jacks, chassis out of cases, and on and on, Revelation cabling
various isolation and racks for all equipment
Fully dedicated audio room, fully treated with tube traps, diffusion, absorption

All the i's are dotted and t's crossed in this system. Beautiful synergy has been reached. I happily listen to digital and good analog.