When does analog compete with digital?

If you buy a used modified Sony or Denon cd player, you can get pretty spectacular sound for under 1000.00. I have found it very difficult to get great sound in analog for under $1500.00-2000.00. To me, to get great analog sound is going to cost more like $4000.00 and that's just table, arm, & cartridge. You'd still need a phono preamp. To answer your particular what's missing in your system question, I'm going to guess the jump factor (like live music) and clear powerful bass, and maybe the incisive highs when you listen to lower to middle cost analog. Due to getting those sound traits more in cd, I think it makes analog seem too smooth and you want to hear more grunt with some balls to it. That's my take as a Modwright Sony 9000 totally messed up my appreciation of many of my records. I WANT that jump factor and drive in the analog, too. Very tough to find IMO, even at the $2000.00-4000.00 range used.

I think one of the things that was missed here is why so many (non-audiophiles, mostly) people believe CD's sound better than vinyl. The lack of surface sound, ticks, pops mislead most in thinking CD's are better (more dynamic, quieter). Now, when you climb up the vinyl scale in quality of components and system matching, synergy, set up, leveling, etc, the surface sound goes away and ticks and pops are deminished. I think somehwere there is a cost associated with where that surface noise, etc., goes away. I know you don't get there with a $100 cartridge and $250 phonostage but somewhere above there may be the answer. Once those distractions are gone, one can hear the dynamics, nuances, spatial ques, air, etc (all the things that make vinyl sound great).

Good post by Cerrot. I'd offer a teensy semi-correction. IME one can get where he described with *some* inexpensive cartridges, provided everything else in the vinyl front end is up to snuff.

For example, I own a $125 MM. If I put it in my main system ($6K table, $5K arm, $8K phono stage) it performs pretty much as Cerrot described and delivers a good portion of what great vinyl replay has to offer.

As he noted, however, this would not happen if I cheaped out on any of the other three components, not even if I used my costly LOMC. To hear what vinyl can do, table, arm and phono stage must be very good and in these categories good doesn't come cheap.

Agree completely that the large majority of people, even many audiophiles, have never heard a high end vinyl setup. Such a visitor's reaction is as predictable as it is enjoyable: eyes pop, jaws drop, they're typically overwhelmed by the volume of musical information they're hearing for the first time. Records they thought they new well (from the CD) become a completely new experience.

Unfortunately, when they see the work and cost required to achieve this most realize it's just not for them. They're happy to buy me a bottle of wine from time to time in order to hear it again though. ;-)

"I think one of the things that was missed here is why so many (non-audiophiles, mostly) people believe CD's sound better than vinyl"

Perhaps because so many turntable systems are less than optimally set up; and frequently much less than, IMO.

I think they are less than optimally set up because they take a bit of effort, knowledge, tools and investment (accurate scale, strobe) and the average user doesn't understand what's involved with acquiring the best sound from a vinyl rig, or how to get there. The smarter ones have their dealr set them up in thier homes but you still need the ongoing sped checking, VTF, VTA, erc., throughout the TT experience. Very few are set and forget--CD players usually are. You buy a cd player, plug it in and that's pretty much it. A vinyl rig is much more complicated than that. Many TT's are offered as a one box solution, buy it, open it up,hook it up and they lead you to beieve you're good to go, but you probaly aren't and need to read a book, internet article, one of Mickey's DVD's. A CD payer out of the box usually sounds better than a TT out of the box for these very reasons. You won't buy a $10,000 TT and not understand this, but you may buy a $1,000 TT and have no concept of the work involved to set it up properly. I do believe that a $1,000 TT set up properly can outperform a more expensive TT not set up properly. The set up issue is fairly removed from CD players. IC's and PC's and isolation on a CD player are no where as much of an impact as leveling, speed, etc., on a TT.