Nude Turntable Project

Henry, Don't own a Garrard 301

Sorry Lew.....I knew you had an idler and was just too lazy to look-up your System Page.....
It would be interesting to check your Technics SP10Mk3 which has the motor with the most torque (power?).....?

Lew
The shielding on the L07d looks like galvanized steel sheet. I think that it improves with the addition of extra shielding because there are some gaps and that in this case more is better. Yes it does resemble a flying saucer in profile and is , almost, completely encapsulated in shielding.
Another interesting design is that extensive shielding is used below the motor.

Btw it is not my intention to criticize the design. It is simply a different approach to building a motor.
I very much like its speed sensor approach and the clever way the main rotor magnet relieves some of the platter weight from the thrust bearing.

Lewm - I'm sure it does; I've never seen the thread slip on any of those. That was part of my point to Dover. I thought also you were going to take issue with his idea that the Verdier needs a "stronger" motor. To my way of thinking, the Verdier is one of those in the "hi mass/lo torque" grouping of belt-drive turntables, a grouping that I regard highly for sonics and which includes the Walker Proscenium.

Lewm - as far as I can tell from pics of the Final TT - both the Final and Platone Verdier use thread but similarities end there. they are totally different executions - as different as an ESL and Dynamic Cone speaker. I am sure Dover will enlighten us more about his Final TT.

The Verdier is outside of the box as you can see from your dealers setup. It is like your childhood merry-go-round. Both the Platine Verdier and merry-go-round, once spinning need only occasional jolts / pulls from the motor/person to keep them going. The motor can be seen cycling on and off. If setup properly you can in fact turn the motor off and on for a short period and not notice the pitch change. Try that with your Dealers TT - I am very curious what you will hear.

Whatever one might think of the Verdier, I believe it was designed "as a whole", and the use of a relatively weak motor is intentional.

You are absolutely correct and the Verdier is not for everyone. But here is an most important consideration. We all hear about how powerful this or that one TT is; how torquey it is. The big motor. How quickly it gets to speed.
Well I used to race on land, water and snow. if you ask any veteran racer - you have a race to run - you must stay at a constant speed and there are alot of turns peaks and valleys on the race course. The first half of the race will be easier to navigate over while the last few turns will be tighter. The magic question.

if you had to choose -do you want better torque or brakes based on these conditions ?

The drivers/riders I knew including me would say that braking is more important. Now with a TT both are important but ask yourself how does your TT brake? Is there a motor involved, a brake pad that moves in and out. Does it need to attach to a spindle, belt or thread to have the ability to brake. Well the Verdier uses no motor for breaking. Braking is done with the replusive force of the magnets. It is natural physics dealing with the record behavior. Am not aware of any other TT like this plus it has no thrust bearing.
If you cut the thread while it is turning the platter turns for about 1/3 the time than when turning as a whole system connected to the motor pulley and just turning the motor off.

Also in keeping with Henry's Nudie thread the Verdier is as nude as you can be imo. This design also however leaves it open to audiophiles mods. The motor can be replaced with anything along with any kind of belt or thread. Once you replace the original motor and thread system you have defeated JC Verdier's well thought out design. Your dealing with a platter system that has braking action in it for a reason. Your on your own. What other TT motors have been built to work with this type of platter system. Hey - who am I to stop someone from putting on a TW motor, or a VPI one or lets see how about a Galibier one. Heres a good one. An sp10mkii set up beside with a special acrylic platter set at the right height so thread can be installed. hows that idea ? it comes from another Verdier owner. As long as you're happy I guess. Crazy hobby.

Cheers

09-19-13: Ct0517

Dover
An example of this is the Verdier, where the motor is not strong, and addressing this should be a prerequisite before converting to thread drive.

imo - if you truly understood how this table worked you would not have made this comment. I guess JC Verdier does not know what he is doing. If I recall you discussed a Verdier in the past on this forum and it required the use of a setup bearing to run properly as it oscillated. Could it have been one of the many counterfeit ones around ? Its a very imitated and duplicated table. You need to be very careful.

Your recollection is not correct. I have not used the words "set up bearing" and "oscillated" in the context of the Verdier. I have not heard a "fake" Verdier whatever that is.
I understand perfectly how the Verdier works, and there have been many iterations since the first Granito based one came out..
Suggest you read up on the Verdier. http://www.jcverdier.com/ADSL/platineV.html

Hifi News Review - "Incidentally, the bearing tan be fitted with a bail and thrust plate, by-passing the magnetic support. but apparently it doesn't then sound as good."

You might also like to check out Dertonams comments as suggested regarding the use of a ball :

04-01-09: Dertonarm
Lewm, two magnets rotating in a horizontal = planar sphere do indeed produce an eddy current field.
The Platine Verdier folks and dealers will hate me for this .......anyway:
The current La Platine does feature somewhat lower quality magnets (compared to the old Focal magnets used till 1990/91 - that particular magnet was no longer available when Focal changed to the "6-tablet-magnet" - design invented by J. Mahul for the 15" woofers in early 1991) - thats why they promoted the ball to be inserted in the top bearing shaft hollow. To stabilize the vertical movement of the platter (in mid-90ies production was a tendency to instable magnetic field and often in loss of magnetic force causing many Platines in europe (and I suppose elsewehere too) to "oscillate" (= being unstable in height of platter)). To solve this problem the "top ball bearing shaft" was introduced (well, the hollow was there before, so they just put in the ball - smart move). That particular problem never occured with pre-1991/92 Platines. However the eddy current brake effect is no longer as dominat as it was in the original version with much better and more homogenous magnets.
Dertonarm (Threads | Answers | This Thread)

With regard to my comments on weak motor, the Final Audio can pull the 22kg platter/mat/clamp to speed in less than 1 revolution. The Verdiers that I have seen and heard do not have this drive power. I know a couple of Verdier owners who have replaced the motor drive to good effect. The Final also has a correctly designed pulley for thread drive with self centering profile.
The original Verdier came with the option of a belt or linen thread ( or nylon according to one review on the Verdier website ). The optimum pulley profile for a thread drive is a concave face so that the thread self centres. Running a thread on a pulley with a flat face can result in instability of the thread tracking as it can ride up and down, or will find a natural position either at the top or bottom of the pulley, depending on how accurate the pulley is in terms of congruency to the platter edge.

09-19-13: Lewm
I've often wondered how the heck they can keep the thread from slipping down the smooth sides of the platter.

Tension and a correctly design pulley ensures that thread remains stable as above.

09-19-13: Ct0517
My Verdier and my other hobby tables are compared against my Studer in my own room real time - switching between the two.
So thats my Ground Zero Dover. Whats yours ?

The origins of the term ground zero began with the Manhattan Project and the bombing of Japan. The Strategic Bombing Survey of the atomic attacks, released in June 1946, used the term liberally, defining it as: "For convenience, the term 'ground zero' will be used to designate the point on the ground directly beneath the point of detonation, or 'air zero.' William Laurence, an embedded reporter with the Manhattan Project, reported that "Zero" was "the code name given to the spot chosen for the atomic bomb test" in 1945.
This forum is a sharing and examination of ideas, not a war zone.
The use of the term Ground Zero is perhaps unfortunate.