Schroder sq and the new talea


I heard there was to be a fun time of learning and comparing of these two arms at the rmaf. Since the talea is relatively new, it still has to stand the test of time with comparisons on other tables, other systems and the selective and subjective tastes of discerning audiophiles! There is to be a comparison in one of the rooms at the rmaf this year, which i wasnt able to make. I would be curious to hear some judicial, diplomatic, friendly talk about how they compared to each other in the same system and room. I currently own the origin live silver mk3 with a jan allaerts mc1bmk2 and am enjoying this combo but have become curious about the more popular "superarms" Hats off to both frank and joel.

I hope this thread draws more light rather than heat. If someone preferred one arm over the other it would be OK. With all the variables it doesnt mean that much to me. What matters to me is what it sounds like to me and in my room. With that said...

What was your bias? was it for the schroder or the talea?

cheers!...
vertigo
"Price is what you pay, value is what you get" -- Warren Buffett

Value is then in the eye of the beholder. The cost of materials Picasso used to create "Guernica" amounted to a few dollars, yet the value of his creation is incalculable. On a larger scale, price and value meet on the open market.

On a personal scale, high end manufacturers allow me to experience a facimile of Coltrane's genius; a tremendous value to myself which I am fortunate to share with my immediate family. Nor is it possible for me to assign a value to the friendships that have resulted from participating in this hobby and sharing the joys of music. This has immeasurably enriched my life.

I would not be so presumptious to assign a different value to anyone else.
'Value', as a concept, cannot explain why humans value oxygen but are not being prepared to spend their money to buy any quantities of it.

'Marginal Utility' is a better concept in that respect: it explains the hefty premium people are prepared to pay for luxury goods according to tangible or intangible (such as 'perceived status') benefits.

It is possible that one man's 'marginal utility' is another man's foolishness, but, hey, we live in democracy :-)

Because of the subjective nature of 'marginal utility', that only partially is amenable to logic, it is impossible to synthesise the polarised views expressed in this thread.

This, though, should not be an obstacle in having more events like the one organised by Thom in the RMAF 2010
Kostas 1.Well said and with that we should all say 'Good Night" and end this discussion
Hello everyone,
I just returned from the US and I didn't get a chance to (nor felt like) check(ing) the responses to the RMAF session that originally was the subject of this thread.
First of all, I'd like to thank Thom for hosting the event, secondly apologize for the fact that the circumstances/conditions were far from what they ought to be to call it a valid comparison between tonearms.
I had no choice but to ask Thom and Joel if they'd agree to me using a different cartridge than the A90, generously supplied by Mike Lavigne(thanks again!), as it had issues that would have made a comparison invalid to begin with. Had there been a second Dynavector XV1s, I'd have used that, despite it being not my favorite cartridge.
The choice I then made had to do with what was available AND promised to be of high enough a quality to make the event "work" in one way or another. It might have been better(less risky) to cancel the show, but just because you found that the sweets purchased for Haloween were past their expiration date, you don't tell all the trick or treaters to go elsewhere, but you go back to the candy store and buy what may not be their first choice but still qualifies a CANDY.
The cartridge chosen had such different requirements in terms of loading and gain, that the Atmasphere preamp's phonosection would not have been a reasonable match. I suggested bringing what I was using in the Artemis room, simply because it worked there without any problem. No "team Schröder" trying to take advantage of the situation here. More like competing in someone elses skatepark with additional time required to mount the proper wheels after finding their concrete was different from yours at home. The targeted price tag on that phonostage(a prototype) was not known to me(nor, I believe, is it carved in stone). Irrespective of that, it was clear to me - and I tried to make it clear to Thom and Joel - that it was no longer possible to regard/call/sell the event as a "shootout".

About the playback levels chosen. It is not correct that the playback level on the Sussurro/Schröder/Artemis combo was always ~5db louder than for the XV1s/Thalea/Atmashere frontend. In one case it was the exact opposite and I did comment on that right after the track was over. This brings me to a very important deficiency of the entire session, one that would have obscured(to say the least) any outcome even if the only variable had been the tonearm. The volume control on the Atmasphere preamp(no criticism per se intended) is rather coarsly stepped where both Joel and I ended up using/having to use it. It was simply impossible to achieve level matching to within 1db and even that would be above my personal requirement(+/-0,2db max!) for a halfway objective comparison. I asked the listeners whether to go up or down in volume every time it was my turn to level match the playback. Now if anyone in the audience had a level meter, why didn't they come forward and say "wait, that's to high" or "turn it down a notch, please"? Actually, if you had done any level measurements, you'd know that it isn't possible to get even close without a test tone and a quiet room(instead of music playing). An iPhone comes in handy if you have Shazam on it, but as a level meter, well...
No odormeter app yet available for it either, but there were clearly too many people in the room that all had a long day. Relaxed listening it didn't seem to be. The original target was 20(25 people max.), I counted nearly 50 and might have missed some.
Despite all of that, I do not regret suggesting such an event in in the first place nor going through with it despite all of the above. And while it was obvious that not everyone's expectations were met, there seemed to have been easily as many people having enjoyed it as there were disgruntled ones. Now why is it that the latter group had numerous members(see posts above) that could clearly assign the differences they heard to just the tonearms that were used, seemingly omitting the influence of cartridge, phonostage, wiring?

A reminder. I suggested to invite EVERY tonearm designer/manufacturer/representative who considers their product worthy of the state of the art sticker. I deeply regret that it seemed to have been impossible for Thom to offer/give the Triplanar, the Reed, the Well Tempered, the Graham Phantom or Micha Huber's Simplicity tonearm(to name a few) a platform.
I realize that such an undertaking would be next to impossible to fit into the frame of a Trade Show evening, but if(with all the things we learned from this in mind) we'd ever do it again, any interested party should be approached/included, possibly at the cost of having to go with more than one host.

What did I get out of this? I met Joel Durand, who, apart from making an excellent tonearm, seemed to be as nice and humble a person as your are ever likely to encounter at RMAF, which, as far as such shows go, beats every other show for good spirited people. I'm definitely looking forward to our next meeting!

For the record(pun intended..:-) : I did build the first tonearm with a magnetically stabilized and damped thread bearing in 1978, a time when there was no internet or other means for a 15year old to research what was "out there" to copy or use as an "inspiration". No neodymium magnets, Kevlar, Dyneema... either back then. SmCo was the strongest magnetic material available back them, few monofilaments were usable at all. The arm looked a lot like some of the rougher DIY-Schröder "clones" you'll find on the net(couldn't afford a lathe 'til I was 18).So while I hold Bill Firebaugh's work in the highest regard, he is not my dad :-)

Back to chief philosopher D. Brakemeier, aka Dertonarm and the definition of value...

See ya'all next year (or sooner :-)

Frank
Kostas_1, classical economics is helpful in explaining valuations on luxury goods like tonearms, insofar as the theory of marginal utility accounts for diminishing returns. However esoteric consumer behaviors relating to tonearm purchases requires a more complex model than rational behavior--perhaps something from evolutionary economics building on Veblen's idea of conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure. Yet as everybody around here knows, there is not much that is socially conspicuous about audio consumption. Valuations are formed in the privacy of one's living room and socially in a small virtual community of mostly shallow ties. The virtual gathering might appear to be just another form of country-clubbish exclusionary bonding, were not manufacturers and enthusiasts dancing together around the maypole of the thread after sharing a sweat lodge at an RMAF demo. We've come a long way since Frank built his first arm without a lathe...