Is a vinyl rig only worth it for oldies?

Dear Atmasphere: +++++ " I would invite you to spend some time with a mastering lathe sometime. It may change your opinion. " ++++

thank's, I will take this seriously and next time I can be on USA I let you know. I know that could be a learning experience additional to meet you.

+++++ " There are those that say its a miracle that the LP system works, but its not a miracle, its simple engineering and an understanding of the nuances. " +++++

I know the enginnering that is inside the playback links on analog ( LP ) systems and what I posted was mainly what happen during LP playback where I can't read in your post nothing against my post.

Ralph, there is no way for no cartridge for no LP analog system that can " read/track " exactly all the grooves in the recording with no exception.

Forget all the " problems " during LP playback I posted and think for a moment how you or any one could gives " support " or speak of " superiority " to the LP playback when in this medium we can't even READ WITH ACCURACY WITH PRECISION ANY SINGLE GROOVE IN ANY LP!!!!!!!!!!

The LP playback medium IMHO is heavely faulty it does not matters that we like it or not. IMHO we can't " shout " the " superiority " of the analog over digital and in specific 24/176.8 recordings.

Ralph and any one of you: please test for two-three weeks the digital medium with out listening analog LP in between and then after those weeks return to analog and share your experiences about.

Gentlemans, I still enjoy the LP alternative as all of you but this is not the subject but what is happening down there.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

It seems to me, that the out of hand dismissal of CD sound quality, is a little out of date. Ironically, as LP became a"legacy" medium, the offerings of turntables, arms and phonostages etc, exploded in terms of quality and quantity.

I put legacy in quote marks for vinyl, as it seems to be going from strength to strength. If one medium is threatened, it's CD, with sales falling off a cliff and some manufacturers, like Linn, abandoning CD players altogether. Well what is left seems, compared to 20 years ago, to be of such better quality. Even middle grade CD players are excellent and the top end, Nagr's, Zanden's and Wadia's, quite superb. Better than top flight LP? maybe not, but the gap is smaller and the effort and cost of getting to top flight sound, a jolly sight easier.

The argument for having both, for me, is the greater access it gives yme, to the range of music I want in my collection. I am an opera lover and live in the UK, so the incomparable world of 50's to 70's EMI and Decca boxed sets, is available on E bay, garage sales and charity shops. In this instance, the CD copies of these recordings, I absolutely would agree, is nowhere near as good.

Is one better than the other? maybe, do I care, no. I weant access to the music I want, in the best format it's available on. That might be CD or vinyl.

Forget all the " problems " during LP playback I posted and think for a moment how you or any one could gives " support " or speak of " superiority " to the LP playback when in this medium we can't even READ WITH ACCURACY WITH PRECISION ANY SINGLE GROOVE IN ANY LP!!!!!!!!!!

Raul, this is blatantly false and if you actually believe that then you need to know its not true. Now, it is true that cartridges and arms have certain limits, some being better than others. Like I said before, its the mark of a good mastering engineer to understand those limits so he can produce an LP that can be played but still shows off the master recording (unless its directly to LP...).

Now I did comment directly to this issue of traceability above, but the *generalization* that no groove can be tracked by any cartridge is simply too much of a generalization. If that were true LPs would not still be around.

Again, you should spend some time around a mastering setup to see what the recording was like before it went into the grooves. Then listening to what the cartridge/arm combo thinks is there, sounds to me like you might be quite surprised at what is possible.

Its also helpful to make a recording and then put out an LP and a CD of it. That is perhaps the most telling. I have such recordings- one of the better known ones I have done is Canto General by Mikas Theodorakis (peotry by Pablo Neruda). Its pretty easy to discern that the CD **in no way** is able to keep up with the LP on a decent playback system.

I had a guy come into our room at THE Show this last January. He was somewhat notorious on the AudioAsylum.com website for his rants about phase and digital. He did not know that we had a phase switch on our preamp so he had us play a CD and then said that reversing the phase would make it better. I flipped the switch... so there was maybe a very small difference. Then he as insisting about how much better the digital was over analog if it was 'in-phase'... So I put on the LP for him, which instantly smoked the CD (we had a very nice digital system in that room BTW). So then he proclaimed that if there was an analog master tape involved that what he was talking about didn't apply. It was obviously a face-saving comment- he got up and left as fast as he could. I'm afraid we had a good chuckle at his expense.

Raul, I was pretty sure that you are making a phono stage and a tone arm. These comments of yours sound to me unlike what I would have expected- have you experienced a change of heart?

"If one medium is threatened, it's CD"

No doubt. DIgital downloads are a way bigger threat to CD than vinyl. SImilar to how digital downloads of books are a threat to the formally printed variety. Printing/publishing to physical media in general is a negative growth industry as a result of digital access and downloads. Many local daily newspapers would like to be able to be done with it already due to the relative costs and overhead of printing and mass distribution of printed materials. Lots of happy trees out there as a result I imagine!

"Now I did comment directly to this issue of traceability above, but the *generalization* that no groove can be tracked by any cartridge is simply too much of a generalization. If that were true LPs would not still be around. "

Yeah, its all relative. No encoding/decoding approach is perfect, digital or analog. Each has advantages/disadvantages.

No way vinyl will ever even come close to competing with digital moving forward though. IT may well outlast CD redbook as a niche market though in that digital will continue to progress beyond CD whereas vinyl will continue to provide an alternative for those who care I suppose.

Dear Atmasphere: +++++ " have you experienced a change of heart? " +++++

no, I did not but I'm not talking on that subject but to understand why:

+++++ we can't even READ WITH ACCURACY WITH PRECISION ANY SINGLE GROOVE IN ANY LP +++++

IMHO it's not a generalization. In a pivoted tonearm through all the LP tracks/grooves exist a tracking error but at two points and at this points does not exist that error at these two points the stylus tip in a pivoted tonearm is tangential to the groove and can " mimic " but this is only in theory because at those single points you can read that groove " if and only if " the VTA/SRA/overhang is perfect and the LP is absolutely flat with out no tiny waves, additional the stylus shape must me a exactly " copy " of the cutting head!

So now, please let me know in which recordings with which analog rig kind of set up we can read those only two points/grooves where does not exist the tracking error.

That I like the LP alternative and that I supported and support it can't means that I understand too that's a non-accurate medium and that's why persons like you work to hard trying to lower trying to help to those medium self imperfections. Do you think that if I don't like it the LP alternative I took my time with my PhonoLinepream or the tonearm design?

As you I try always to lower the analog medium distortion floor, this is the best we can do or " invent " a better medium.

You know I respect you because of your care and effort in your electronic designs in favor of the analog medium where you already have high success even that you choosed tube technology that in some ways does not fulfil my " priorities " and where you " elevated " what in some ways ( too ) are probably that technology limits.

The enemy against we have to " fight " in audio has a name: DISTOrTIONS/ACCURACY, every kind.

All what surrounded my main audio system targets is to lower the system's distortions all over each one auudio links in the audio chain and each time I achieve " some where " lower distortions/accuracy the rewards are immediate and worth all the effort.

As a medium for designers the analog medium is exciting because there is a lot of " land " to work about ( distotions/accuracy ) to improve the quality performance level.

I don't know which are the tube electronics limits but I know that on SS technology there are many " books " to write as in cartridges, tonearms and TTs.

Digital is diferent and more " perfect " and today in continuos development and grow up as technology. We " mere mortals " can do or can change nothing on digital technology it self where we can do " somethings " is on the analog design on digital audio items that's IMHO its Aqila's heel.

I'm with both mediums and as some of you I enjoy both. I agree that both have advantages and disadvantages and in strict point of view I prefer the HR digital trade offs.

I don't know for other people but for me the music foundation belongs to the bass low bass and here the LP alternative can't even dream what the digital can do even the redbook is better than the LP compared to live music at 3-4 meters from the source.
Both mediums can't performs the same/alike because are diferent with diferent distortion/accuracy levels.

My " excercise " in this thread is try to understand the LP playback " problems " that surround it and try to say that that hypotetic analog/LP superiority is only that: hypotetic but not real. Digital has its own merits and we have to recognize even if we don't like the digital medium.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.