Is a vinyl rig only worth it for oldies?

Dear Atmasphere: +++++ " have you experienced a change of heart? " +++++

no, I did not but I'm not talking on that subject but to understand why:

+++++ we can't even READ WITH ACCURACY WITH PRECISION ANY SINGLE GROOVE IN ANY LP +++++

IMHO it's not a generalization. In a pivoted tonearm through all the LP tracks/grooves exist a tracking error but at two points and at this points does not exist that error at these two points the stylus tip in a pivoted tonearm is tangential to the groove and can " mimic " but this is only in theory because at those single points you can read that groove " if and only if " the VTA/SRA/overhang is perfect and the LP is absolutely flat with out no tiny waves, additional the stylus shape must me a exactly " copy " of the cutting head!

So now, please let me know in which recordings with which analog rig kind of set up we can read those only two points/grooves where does not exist the tracking error.

That I like the LP alternative and that I supported and support it can't means that I understand too that's a non-accurate medium and that's why persons like you work to hard trying to lower trying to help to those medium self imperfections. Do you think that if I don't like it the LP alternative I took my time with my PhonoLinepream or the tonearm design?

As you I try always to lower the analog medium distortion floor, this is the best we can do or " invent " a better medium.

You know I respect you because of your care and effort in your electronic designs in favor of the analog medium where you already have high success even that you choosed tube technology that in some ways does not fulfil my " priorities " and where you " elevated " what in some ways ( too ) are probably that technology limits.

The enemy against we have to " fight " in audio has a name: DISTOrTIONS/ACCURACY, every kind.

All what surrounded my main audio system targets is to lower the system's distortions all over each one auudio links in the audio chain and each time I achieve " some where " lower distortions/accuracy the rewards are immediate and worth all the effort.

As a medium for designers the analog medium is exciting because there is a lot of " land " to work about ( distotions/accuracy ) to improve the quality performance level.

I don't know which are the tube electronics limits but I know that on SS technology there are many " books " to write as in cartridges, tonearms and TTs.

Digital is diferent and more " perfect " and today in continuos development and grow up as technology. We " mere mortals " can do or can change nothing on digital technology it self where we can do " somethings " is on the analog design on digital audio items that's IMHO its Aqila's heel.

I'm with both mediums and as some of you I enjoy both. I agree that both have advantages and disadvantages and in strict point of view I prefer the HR digital trade offs.

I don't know for other people but for me the music foundation belongs to the bass low bass and here the LP alternative can't even dream what the digital can do even the redbook is better than the LP compared to live music at 3-4 meters from the source.
Both mediums can't performs the same/alike because are diferent with diferent distortion/accuracy levels.

My " excercise " in this thread is try to understand the LP playback " problems " that surround it and try to say that that hypotetic analog/LP superiority is only that: hypotetic but not real. Digital has its own merits and we have to recognize even if we don't like the digital medium.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul retains an open mind in his search for musical perfection and the force is now with him!

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for me the music foundation belongs to the bass low bass and here the LP alternative can't even dream what the digital can do even the redbook is better than the LP compared to live music at 3-4 meters from the source.

Boy, the ability to play bass IMO/IME has always been ruled by LP. I have never seen any digital system do as well! I can't agree with this statement at all, it is so false it seems crafted to be inflammatory, but knowing you Raul, I doubt that is the case. Curious.

A straight-tracking arm solves the tracking issue you describe if its engineered correctly (I am not a fan of air bearings!). But still I would recommend spending time with an LP cutter- the tracking error of radial tonearms is almost a non-issue relative to the overall picture, as long as the radial arm is built right, and there are a few.

This all has to do with the source recording- knowing what that sounds like and then knowing what the resulting CD or LP sounds like! That is why I say the tracking distortion, so long as the arm/cartridge setup is otherwise working correctly, is not important. So I cannot agree that a digital media, at least in its many existing forms, is somehow better- they all impose an audible artifact where the analog does not.

Now understand that I listen to a lot of lathe cuts- it is from that perspective that I write this. They just don't make any noise! Yet you can cut a 50KHz carrier tone into one and modulate FM stereo into it... crazy!

I cannot over-emphasize this point, apparently. You just have to experience it.

Dear Atmasphere: About that bass subject I made it a lot of test and compared those tests against live music in real venue " sitting/staying " at 3-4 meters from the source.

Main difference between digital and LP seems to me that reside in the time decay of the bass notes/harmonics where IMHO excist some kind of " overhang " in the LP performance where the digital it is not only more profound but sharper/solid/fast, less " obtrusive " and more natural/real with better definition.

Way before I understand the overall bass subject and before may subwoofers came to my system its performance in that frquency range was very good and I like it ( my speakers can go down to 16hz almost flat. ), I like the " organic signature " that came from my system: the floor and glass in the windows shaked and I was " proudly " about till I learned that that " shaked " was charged with a lot a lot of distortions that were what in reality shaked my room ( when deep bass in the LP playback. ).
Then my task was and is to lower those bass distortions and when subs came to my system I really knew that that " shaked " was heavy charged of distortions. Of course through the years I made several things to lower whole system distortions but when you lower the bass ones the quality level performance in any audio system improves a lot by a wide margin.
Today and with SPLs around 105dbs my room does not shake but I can feel the deepest bass on the recording when that recording ask for. The differences when we achieve the right bass range are just stunning and IMHO the LP can't compete against digital, not a wide margin but IMHO digital has an advantage down there.

As you and I already posted both formats have its own trade-offs. I like it both.

For me the bass range is perhaps the most critical to attain SOTA performance in any audio system. IMHO as goos a system bass quality performance as good the system overall performance.
Everything is important through the music frequency range but bass along the other frequency extreme put the frame/setting where the whole music will shine.

My experiences through many years and many tests brought me to that opinion.

++++ " Now understand that I listen to a lot of lathe cuts- it is from that perspective that I write this. " ++++

Course I understand it and that's why our opinion's differences. As I told you I would like to have those experiences.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Like Raul, I have carefully observed bass and most other parameters of sound at live events.

Based on that, I too have reached the conclusion that good digital, even CD redbook, has no problem doing realistic and accurate bass if implement well (always a big if).

Same true for vinyl but there are more challenges getting clean bass out of many records due to issues that are well documented with the format over the years (wow/flutter/rumble, manufacturing and other imperfections that only increase over time like warping over time, etc).

Most people will find it easier to get right with digital IMHO, not to say that it cannot be done very well in many cases as well with records. IT will just in general be harder and also probably a lot more expensive to address with vinyl. A lot will vary from record to record. Part of the expense will be finding a copy of a desired title on vinyl that is relatively free of any defects.