Is a vinyl rig only worth it for oldies?

Dear Lacee: +++++ " If vinyl replay has more distortions, then they are of the pleasing variety... " ++++

I have no doubt about and agree with you because that's what happen.

IMHO the main problem is that many of us are totally accustomed to those wrong but " pleasing " distortions in the same way many of you are biased and accustomed to tube electronics.

Nothing wrong with that but my point and main subject is that on playback the digital alternative is truer to the recording with a lot less distortions ( every kind. ). That we like it or not is a different matter.

This was posted for other person in other thread:

+++ " that we do have a long term acoustic memory of a sort - as well as a bias - sometimes so much so that it makes an unbiased hearing of something different very difficult, " ++++

In the same way that exist people that only listen to digital as there are people that only hear LPs and obviously like you an me whom hear both alternatives.
If you make an invitation to a " digital person " to listen LPs he still will prefer digital in the same way the other side around but if we take out our bias and only compare what we listen through both alternatives ( both with a set up that fulfill each one alternative needs. ) with what are our live event experiences ( better if those experiences were near field. ) we will know for sure which is really more near that live event experiences/performances and that IMHO is digital.

Lacee, I'm not against LPs experience/alternative it's only that I like to analize what happen down there through playback and all those added distortions during playback does not makes it a better alternative than digital.
I posted twice that both alternatives have its own trade-offs, there is nothing perfect.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

R. What I feel is the problem with digital, is that it sanitizes too much of the natural distortions that are a part of everyday life,which includes the instruments themselves ,the room, the recording chain etc.

When you start to eliminate these natural occuring distortions at the time of the recording which are different from the things like groove distortion that you are focusing on at the playback end of the chain,you also eliminate part of the liveness that an analog recording and replay system has.

It's this warts and all type of realism that I am talking about.The distortions that we hear in everyday life that analog so faithfully reproduces and that digital omits.
It's an analog world, full of distortions.We have developed an attachment to them, and we sense when they are absent.Our ears and minds don't cancel out the distortions of our everyday lives,The distortions are part of life.Eliminate them, and you are left with only part of the picture, pieces of that picture are missing.And we can sense that something is not right.

Our minds are left restless and weary ,trying to fill in the missing gaps.

There's not much equipment induced distortions in my friend's superior system.If they're there in the recording you'll hear it, what I am saying is that his gear in either format, adds very little of it's own.

In light of this fact,this ultra resolving system quite easily reveals the superiority of vinyl in an area that seems to have never been experienced by most folks in the digital camp if they haven't heard a great vinyl set up.

It's the ease and relaxation that sweeps over you as you listen to vinyl on such a superb system.Something that is seldom realized with digital, and my friend agrees.
He loves to demonstrate all his digital gear and the computer based system of high res downloads which the Scarlatti reveals whether they are or are not high res.

My friend also likes to end the evenings listening with the aforementioned 5 buck used lp on the SME set up, just to make everyone shake their heads in awe and ask, "why would you need anythingelse than this?"And my friend agrees wholeheartedly.

He embraced digital replay with some of the best gear money can buy,yet at the end of the day,he is more impressed with the sound his vinyl gear makes.

He's not alone.

Yes the Scarlatti gear does great bits and pieces better than my Esoteric does, that's a given.It should.
But it still lacks that last bit of realism that the vinyl gear brings to the party.

It's the desert at the end of a great meal,perhaps all that you really needed.

Dear Lacee: +++++ " I feel is the problem with digital, is that it sanitizes too much of the natural distortions that are a part of everyday life,which includes the instruments themselves ,the room, the recording chain etc. " +++++

+++++ " When you start to eliminate these natural occuring distortions at the time of the recording ... " ++++

Sanitize????, well IMHO you are only speculating. Where do you learn/read/inform about? why sanitize those " natural distortions "? it does on purpose?

at the recording stage the microphone say at 1m. from the sound source takes the sound/music generated at high SPL mainly direct sound with all its distortions if any and for a digital is to easy to conform ceros and ones (0,1. ) all those information that is more complicated for analog because of the magnetic print out that's not perfect, the analog signal is a lot more complicated that the ceros and ones. IMHO there is no single sound that can escape to the microphone that can escape to the digital recording.

All those " natural distortions " that you and your friend like on analog playback does not existed during recording almost all were generated during playback. Lp playback is a " misery " and has not " natural distortions ".

Analog LP is a non-accuarte medium and you, me and no one else can do nothing about but only try to lower system distortions during playback at home.

Natural accuracy is perhaps the " name of the game " and digital is accurate. It is obvious that we don't like accuracy and that's why we like analog LP, tubes, fancy cables, BD TTs, and the like.Btw, I prefer the Esoteric K series to the Scarlatti, way better.

Anyway, I think I will follow enjoying both alternatives. Why not????

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Movies shot in Cinemascope have some unique inherent distortions (see the technical difficulties section in the referenced article) yet are generally quite lovely to watch.

How about modern digital Imax?

Which would you prefer?

Why should vinyl/digital audio, be any different?

The higher sampling rate or higher res digital formats are superior to the limited redbook.Because information lost is replaced,by adding more ones and zeros.But this isn't reality.It's altering it.
Most people prefer the sound of higher sampling rates,as less information is lost.I contend that what is lost is natural distortions that make things sound real.The things that digital lose, analog retains.

In analog recording,because the music isn't being chopped up into bits and pieces, the performance is mostly intact. Upsampling doesn't even add lost information, it only increases the info that is already there to try and fill in the gaps.The missing gaps that most folks with trained ears,couldn't tolerate compared to analog.
Something wasn't perfect with the perfect sound.
No matter how much the specs and spin would try and make you believe.

Analog doesn't do this.

These are some of the things that I have read that tend to give support to my beliefs.

I also believe you can't replace what has been lost.Upsampling isn't the cure, it's a band aid.

For me, the little bit of extra distortion added in vinyl replay is less significant than losing information or limiting bandwidth.

Debating whether Esoteric or Scarlatti are the kings of the hill means nothing to me.Both are great,as are others. I like my Esoteric X-03, I presume that the newer versions are even better.

I do know that my friends full Scarlatti set up is the best digital sound I have ever heard.

But even it is not "perfect sound forever".

Still missing a few important ones and zeros that vinyl isn't.

Some folks say that vinyl has more air around the instruments.
Tubes also give you that.
R. feels these are distortions.
I feel that analog is reproducing all the distortions found in real life, not filtering or sanitizing them out.

If these are nothing but distortions,and should be avoided, then why do they sound more realistic to so many trained ears?

Why does most redbook cd sound flat and two dimensional compared to vinyl?

If distortions or I should say,the faithful reproduction of all the distortions and harmonics found in making a music reproduction,are left intact,I contend that you are closer to what was going on at the time the music was played.And you will enjoy the music more, feel more relaxed, and not even notice any added distortions from the gear.

Take anything out or away from it, and you've lost something that can't be fixed later on.The ear/mind reacts to this lost information which I feel needs to include all the natural distortions inherent in recording and playing music, by shutting down, and listener fatigue sets in.

We live in a distorted world, we have come to accept it as real,take these natural occuring distortion away or replace them with ones and zeros of something already recorded,and the ear/mind will recognize it for what it is.
And reject it as unnatural or foreign to our ears.

Here's an example.
An anechoic chamber is great for doing measuremnts on speakers, but it is not the ideal environment for enjoying music thru those speakers .

The sterile environemnet is uncomfortable, too much or a good thing,we need some room induced distortions and reflections and bounce to make the music sound as it does in real life.

Real life is imperfect.We don't exist in an anechoic environment. We acknowledge and accept imperfections.
When they are missing, we feel it and recognize the loss and we react accordingly.

Now take a stripped to the bone digital recording, with a low res sampling rate, little air around instruments and flat dimensionality, and run it thru sterile sounding soilid state gear a lot of folks feel is acurate because of it's superior spec and low distortion, and you have the perfect recipe for a few minutes not hours of music. listening.