Makeshift tonearm for under $800

Thanks Geoch for all that information. I am happy to read that you have experience with all the tonearms (3012, conqueror and ARO) we are discussing. I also had Linn Ekos on my mind.

Regarding SAEC tonearms, I never thought about it. But now that you have recommended it so highly I will look for them. There are so many models in SAEC, the 407, 506, 308, 8000 series, it is very difficult to understand which one to choose. Would you be able to give some idea on what each of these series may sound like.

Secondly regarding the WE-308SX, how different is it sonically from the WE-506 ? You say it is opposite to 3012, does that mean it is very bright ?

Last question, is 308 and 506 only two tonearms worth buying from SAEC ? What about 407 ?

Rolf Gemein (the founder of Symphonic Line) has modified an Ekos for his own RG6 TT in his house. He said to me that the Ekos needs all these extra modifications, but even then, it is impossible to approach the performance of a Pluto 5A (5A is Pluto's entry model) and advices to stay in the Pluto family. I don't have first hand experience with Ekos, but it was said that it's bearings were very prompt to misalignment during a short period of use, so maybe it is better to avoid the Ekos at the second hand market.

SAEC has also the 317 but no one has it yet. Raul has the 308 & 506 (and maybe even the 8000 I'm not so sure), Halcro has the 308, Nandric had the 407, Tuchan has the 506 & 8000. I choose the 308SX 'cause of the very elevated quality of parts but I've never heard another model. What I must say about 308 models, is that you must not purchase any of them with the ULS-3X headshell 'cause it is not sloted and therefore you can't align per Baerwald. Keep in mind that all SAEC models (except the WE-8000ST) have come with a wrong angle at their armtube and you have to twist the cartridge at the headshell. Forget the 308N which is the entry model and also the 8000 that is impossible to find. Now the late Allen Wright (1947-2011) of Vacuum State after many years dedicated use of the 407, has returned to the 308SX. Although the 407 demands almost no twist at the headshell and the 308SX needs over 10 degrees! it seems the 308SX has something better in it's form of armtube or bearing housing. Tuchan advices me for the 506 that asks for a minimum twist (the cartridge at the headshell) and I trust his taste and opinion. I'm only want to add, that it is better to avoid the ULS-3X 18gr ceramic headshell. It is very inconvenient, extremely expensive and to my experience is a no-no with the SAEC models due to it's fixed holes for the cartridge. I'm using the Zonotone Z-Shell 10 and I'm extremely satisfied.
Bright? almost. But very vivid fo sure. (prepare your self for a big surprise). But I'm only refering to the WE-308SX. Not the 506. Maybe this 12" is better for your needs.
It is 07:00 and I have to go to my work now.
Have a nice day

Dear Geoch, You have obviously 'something' with the SAEC
I have 'something' with the FR-64s. While my reason is
aesthetic your's is probable mechanical in the sense of
craftsmanship. Many Japanese are known caraftsman but qua
modern technical education their first and second generation engineers are educated in Germany. This may explain the 'mechanical part'.
Kessler and Pisha wrote an article with the title 'Tonearm
Geometry and Setup'( Audio,January 1980) in which they
stated the following about the WE-308 SX: 'SX arm design is based upon research done by the Sansui Electric Co. The AES preprint 1390 (D-5) derived the optimum pivot position from a kinematic point of view,with the mass of the arm ,the location of the center of gravity, and the moment of inertia around the system's center of gravity.Resonance was the the engineering problem beinf solved. For this particular arm, it is not advised to optimize the geometry, or the resonance of the system will change to such an extent that the arm will not track properly.'

Regards,

Dear Nikola,
I've allready reprint this article over 2 times here.
After making 2 armboards on my TD124 II one for the SAEC recommended alignment and a second for the Baerwald, it is clear the superiority of the second. If you put the SAEC's values for overhang & offset angle to the VE comparator, the curve of the plot does not make any sense. Daniel (Dertonarm) things that the particular geometry indicates some compatibility only for 7" vinyls. Allen Wright also twists the cartridge at the headshell, and the Shun Mook team who uses the WE-308SX doing the same. A local friend of mine who has the WE-308 he demonstrates to me an excellent behaviour on several test LPs, by using the standard SAEC recommendation! (if you see the plot of it below, this is unbelievable!!!)
I think that the superiority of the sealed double knife edge bearing is such that trascends the trackability problems made by a default alignment.
The tracking Distortion plot, can not include the resonance problems of the particular tonearm, but the listening tests go hand in hand with this curve. At times many debates appears in analog forums about the SAEC recommendation and even if most of the users prefer the Baerwald alignment by twisting the cartridge at the headshell, I can not say that the sound is unacceptable with the SAEC recom. alignment. It just don't suits my LPs.
Maybe you have to use a greater value of antiskating force if you twist the cartridge at the headshell, but I don't see any fault by doing this. After some strong discussion full of controversies between Daniel, Raul and me, (in his thread refered to his protractor) I can't be persuaded -neither John (Odyssey tonearms)- and therefore I proceed with my usual prefered customised alignment the plot of it indicates a curve in between Baerwald & Loefgren B (you can see it below as the "original" in which I'm only change the offset angle from the Baerwald values).

http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_comparator.php?m_el=243.2&m_oh=17&m_oa=22.35&compare=i&submit=calculate

And here you can see the SAEC's recommendation designated as "original"

http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_comparator.php?m_el=235&m_oh=5&m_oa=11.987&compare=i&submit=calculate

Unfortunatelly the prefered Pivot to Spindle distance of (230mm) does not permitted by the big heavy weight threated stabiliser underneath the armboard of my TD124 II neither it was possible to reach the corresponded Effective Length of 246.736 hence the customised 243.2 that is the maximum Ef. Length permitted by my headshell (since some milimeters of length have been losted by twisting the cartridge).
I've test with SAEC recom. align. & Baerwald also but while the SAEC overhang (only 5mm!!!) looks OK in the eye [according the WE-308SX geometry], the Baerwald's overhang (17mm) sounds really better. If you use the Zonotone Z-Shell 10 headshell which has a circular front surface, the twist of the cartridge is almost out of sight.

Anyway as my friend Tuchan advices me, I find naturally easier the recommendation of the 12" WE-506 model for someone who is in doubt. Me, I have had allready in my possesion the WE-308SX model when this matter of alignment came up and I was forced to investigate the whole story.
But I don't have any regrets for this tonearm ... only wish to find the SAEC WE-8000ST someday.

Dear friends,
Have no fear to improvise upon your beloved tonearm's geometry.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1309722499&openusid&zzGeoch&4&5#Geoch

My additional note:
It is way better to stay away from designing on paper your own special 2 null points if you don't have the gift of drawing with absolute composure, uttermost tranquility and total discipline. It is necessary to really love what you are going to do.
In any other case, you must :
Choose any permitted (by your armboard, armbase and headshell) value of Pivot or Eff. Length & Offset Angle that gives you the better results on the VE plot, but strictly on the Baerwald plate, providing of course that you have on hand your 2 point and/or your arc Baerwald protractor by which you can :
Set the Pivot point of your tonearm, reach the corresponding Eff. Length at the stylus tip, align the Zenith of the cantilever at the Baerwald null points, and check for the apparent Overhang with care & precision.

The point is : Whatever you are going to do regarding your tonearm alignment, must primarily approved by your observation (and proper modification) on the VE plot.
Don't get fooled by anything if you don't understand it's method and especially if you don't comprehend fully the result.