denon dl 103 w/ origin live silver mk II: help

09-05-12: Tbromgard
I think Johnnyb53 is correct. If the Denon is that light you could have compliance issues.

I may have overstated the difference a bit. The DL103 is spec'd at 8.5g; the Zu
103 at 14g. Still, 5.5g is significant, especially when we're dealing with a
compliance rating of 5 at 100 Hz. With the Zu103, if you have a 12g effective
mass tonearm and a 14g cartridge plus .5g mounting hardware, you're at
nearly 27g total effective mass which is an advantage over the stock cartridge.
I've read somewhere that Denon's rating at 100 Hz may not be equivalent to
other cart vendors who specify at 1000 Hz. By that standard, the DL103 may
have a compliance of more like 7 or 8, maybe even 10.

Even with that consideration, if you look at this cartridge compatibility chart, it's a challenge to get a DL 103 at 8.5g on a 12g arm to get into the green area.

I'm pretty sure that if the compliance of the cartridge is too stiff relative to the
arm's effective mass, you won't get much bass response.

09-06-12: Johnnyb53

09-05-12: Tbromgard
I think Johnnyb53 is correct. If the Denon is that light you could have compliance issues.

I may have overstated the difference a bit. The DL103 is spec'd at 8.5g; the Zu
103 at 14g. Still, 5.5g is significant, especially when we're dealing with a
compliance rating of 5 at 100 Hz. With the Zu103, if you have a 12g effective
mass tonearm and a 14g cartridge plus .5g mounting hardware, you're at
nearly 27g total effective mass which is an advantage over the stock cartridge.
I've read somewhere that Denon's rating at 100 Hz may not be equivalent to
other cart vendors who specify at 1000 Hz. By that standard, the DL103 may
have a compliance of more like 7 or 8, maybe even 10.

Even with that consideration, if you look at this cartridge compatibility chart, it's a challenge to get a DL 103 at 8.5g on a 12g arm to get into the green area.

I'm pretty sure that if the compliance of the cartridge is too stiff relative to the
arm's effective mass, you won't get much bass response.

I'm not sure why some Japanese cartridge makers specify compliance at 100Hz, because the frequencies of interest are around 7-14Hz - ie where we want resonance to occur.
The more useful 10Hz (not 1000 as you stated) is more often specified by other cartridge manufacturers.

Empirically I have found (with the HFN test record) that the stock 103R has resonance around 11Hz in a 12g effective mass arm (Graham 1.5T) - which indeed indicates a compliance close to 10cu.
That is the stock cartridge.
My 14.5g re-bodied 103R has a resonance closer to 7Hz in my Graham Phantom tonearm - which is actually getting on the low side - though it tracks beautifully and no misbehavior is evident with warps etc. Higher mass arms may make the resonant frequency of the heavy modded cartridge undesirably low - ie close to footfall and record warp frequencies.

YMMV, but my experience is that the compliance compatibility issues with the 103 cartridges are hugely overstated. Lower quality arms may have issues dealing with the energy from the cartridge perhaps.

Not that it necessarily addresses the "shrill, sibilant and fatiguing" sound you reported in your original post, but any OL Silver owner using a low-medium compliance cartridge (including specifically the DL 103) owes it to him/herself to try the tweak described on the Strange Tonearm Tweak thread.

I did it back in 2003-04 and the improvement was not small. This was widely discussed for a number of years by regulars here and on Vinyl Asylum. I never heard anyone report anything but good results, typically very good.

Further if you read deep enough in that thread you'll find my post describing my partner's tweak to the tweak, which allows instant and easy fine VTF adjustment *without* moving that pesky counterweight. Very handy when fine tuning your cartridge setup.

Total cost of all the above: < $5.

So it has now been a week since I initially installed the denon dl 103. I changed the loading to 400 ohms and set the gain to 61 db on the Musical Surroundings pre. It seems as though it just needed some burn in time. The sound is much better. The midrange has become quite amazing. The bass has filled out. It honestly sounds like a completely different cartridge. The arm was left stock and I also did absolutely nothing to the vta. Tracking force still set at the factory recommended 2.5 grams.

I believe that most of the unpleasant sound that was being produced was a result of poor matching with the load settings and burn in time.

Thanks guys for all your help, insight, and time. I really appreciate it!

Final update. I still was not quite pleased with the sound that the denon dl 103 was producing. It sounded good, but I still was not experiencing what the fuss was about. I ordered an 8.5g cartridge stabilizer from isokinetik and a counterweight modification. Adding mass was the only thing that I had not tried with the denon as of yet. Let me tell you, I finally got to experience the full potential of this cartridge. It was literally as though a veil had been lifted. Everything was much more focused. My last question, has anyone noticed a substantial difference when switching to an under slung counterweight with this particular origin live tonearm? My current counterweight is literally almost hanging off the end of tonearm to compensate for the 8.5 grams of mass added to the denon. I think it might be time for a heavier one.